#179 [EN] Steven Braekeveldt - An artist CEO's guide to business, creativity and life

Data: Wed, 22 Jan 2025 05:00:00 +0000  ·  Duração: 01:02:28

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Steven Braekeveldt 00:00:00.00Today, the people in power should realize that they will love somebody who will love somebody who might die. 00:00:07.64It's a type of manager who does not trust his people and therefore wants to be involved in everything and takes everything on his shoulder. 00:00:14.80So every time there's a problem, he says, the problem is the monkey, put it on my shoulder. 00:00:18.86It's incredible how many people you meet who have no hobbies. 00:00:21.80I mean, their hobby is their status. 00:00:24.12What car do I drive? 00:00:25.94How will people see me? 00:00:27.60Estou, está, como foi o fim de semana, foi ao restaurante, e depois cinco vezes beijinhos, beijinhos, beijinhos. 00:00:36.90Todas as minhas e-mails, no fim do dia, sempre respondidas. 00:00:36.90Sempre.
José Maria Pimentel 00:00:46.94Olá, o meu nome é José Maria Pimentel. 00:00:46.94Sejam muito bem-vindos ao 45 Graus. 00:00:50.84Como sempre, agradeço aos novos mecenas do podcast, a Mafalda, o Pedro Gonçalves, o Zé Sá, a Sónia Antunes, a Filomena Oliveira, o José Carlos Silva e, last but not the least, Manuel Cunha Silva. 00:00:50.84Muito obrigado a todos. 00:01:05.10E agora, como este é o episódio com um convidado estrangeiro, vamos mudar para inglês. 00:01:05.10Até já. 00:01:09.92This episode's guest is Steven Brackevelt, who served until November last year as the CEO of the Portuguese subsidiary of AGEAS, a multinational insurance group, as well as CEO of Continental Europe AGEAS. 00:01:23.66He has a quite impressive career, with degrees in law and economics, a teaching background, and decades of leadership roles across continents, from Hong Kong to Mexico, Singapore, Belgium, and, lastly, Portugal. 00:01:35.26But what makes Steven a great guest for 45 Graus is much more than his professional achievements, his curious and passionate approach to life, both professional and personal. 00:01:46.54Despite a demanding career, Steven is a lifelong learner, a traveler, an art lover, and someone who reads, to my great envy, 60 to 90 books a year. 00:01:56.58And he is also a published novelist. 00:01:56.58His first book was released in Portugal under the name O Homem que se Faz Esquecer. 00:02:03.54Steven's curiosity and rich life experience give him, as you will see, a unique perspective on almost any topic, ranging from the classics leadership and organizational culture, sustainability, finding one's purpose in life, and even time management and practical tips on the correct way to manage our email inbox. 00:02:23.08And this is just a sample of what we discussed in this great conversation with Steven Brackevelt. 00:02:23.08Let's go. 00:02:33.54Steven, welcome to 45 Graus. 00:02:37.24Welcome of having me. 00:02:38.56I don't do episodes in English that much. 00:02:38.56And one reason is because whenever I publish an episode in English, I lose about one third of my audience. 00:02:48.24Meaning like I have fewer people listening to the episode then, but I do some exceptions. 00:02:53.10And in this case, it's worth it because, as I was telling you, many people along the past years suggested me that I invite you to the podcast or that I at least meet you and say, oh, you should really invite this guy on. 00:03:05.76Which I found strange because I never, to be honest, like the first time, of course, I never heard your name before. 00:03:11.18You were until very recently the CEO of an insurance company, which is not the sexiest sector. 00:03:16.64So I was surprised. 00:03:16.64But then I thought I should do it. 00:03:18.96And then I read about your path and it made sense. 00:03:22.10So I guess we should start about your coming to Portugal. 00:03:24.56So what, throughout your career, you had, you're born in Belgium, but you had an experience all over the world, Singapore, Hong Kong, Mexico, and then you ended up here. 00:03:32.54Like, I'll do that very briefly. 00:03:34.20How did that happen?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:03:34.98But you're surprised that after these countries, it gets to Portugal or what? 00:03:39.14I didn't say I was surprised. 00:03:41.10I mean, it was actually quite easy. 00:03:43.20I was responsible in a G, I was in the group for Europe. 00:03:47.26And then at a certain moment, the CEO of Portugal left for another company. 00:03:51.40So there was an empty seat. 00:03:52.30We went through many names of the group, but none was with health. 00:03:58.24And so the chairman, the CEO at that time, he said, well, Stephen, I mean, you're in the board in Portugal already since 2007. 00:04:05.76You know, everybody there. 00:04:06.62Why don't you take temporarily the job of CEO and you do Europe out of Portugal? 00:04:12.74I said, well, that's okay. 00:04:13.80I mean, let's do that. 00:04:15.12But from a temporary job, it came a job for eight and a half years because when I arrived and then I saw there was an acquisition on the left side, there was an expansion on the right side. 00:04:24.70And gradually, actually, our operations in Portugal grew quite well and became a quite important part of Portugal. 00:04:31.34And then they said, well, Steve, now you can stay in Portugal. 00:04:34.04So I stayed on in Portugal.
José Maria Pimentel 00:04:35.42What's interesting is that you've moved a lot throughout your career. 00:04:39.98So you typically have stayed for only a few years in any place. 00:04:44.04And here, where you were supposed to be only staying for as a transition phase, you ended up, I don't know, probably staying the longest.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:04:51.58Yeah, yeah. 00:04:51.90It's the longest period abroad that I stayed here. 00:04:55.40And why is that? 00:04:56.34Because I never worked one day here. 00:04:58.56It was fun. 00:05:00.26It was just fun. 00:05:01.32Every day, I mean, although I did long days, it never felt like working because there was a vision. 00:05:08.28There was a mission. 00:05:09.10There was a strategy. 00:05:10.62There was also this changing the whole culture into a culture of more a humanized company where caring is important, where sustainability is important, where impact in society is important. 00:05:21.40All topics which I have to tell you, when I arrived here and I talked about sustainability, most of the people thought it was a kind of new brand of clothing or nobody talked about sustainability, nobody. 00:05:34.76And so it was hard work in making all these moves. 00:05:38.98And nowadays, there is not one fire that comes to the Exit Committee of Egeos of there's a part of sustainability and it's entrenched into the DNA of the group. 00:05:46.34So this whole change of culture was tremendous, fascinating. 00:05:52.28And coming back to your introduction, insurance.
José Maria Pimentel 00:05:56.52I suspected you wanted to defend that.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:05:58.32No, no, I mean, contrary to what people think, it's one of the most sexiest parts of the industries and more and more young people come to the insurance. 00:06:04.60And why is that? 00:06:05.68Because let's take healthcare. 00:06:07.60We are on the brink of technology of everything with healthcare. 00:06:10.70If it's implants, if it's progress of chronical diseases, anything that has to be cancer with everything, we have to follow technology to the letter. 00:06:20.02If it is Internet of Things for your house insurance, for your car insurance, everything is technology. 00:06:26.76And so people are surprised that it holds so much technology in it. 00:06:31.92Yeah, you have to follow everything which is progress in all sides of the business.
José Maria Pimentel 00:06:36.16Let me do a bit, since you brought that up, devil's advocate on it. 00:06:39.22No, no, not that I'm doing it from the outside because I myself work in the financial sector, in the banking sector in particular. 00:06:45.26So I'm no, I'm not, I'm not criticizing from a higher position as it were. 00:06:49.48But if you're doing like car insurance, how much do you need to know about that technology? 00:06:54.14So does it make a difference if the car is electrical or based on a combustion engine, if it crashes?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:07:01.44Well, you would be surprised. 00:07:02.64I mean, firstly, car insurance, of course, is a mandatory product. 00:07:05.56So it's not a question that you have to do a big, big, hard sale because everybody has a car insurance, it's mandatory. 00:07:11.10But within a car insurance, take your window, your front window. 00:07:15.68This is not a window anymore. 00:07:17.36That's a computer. 00:07:18.70I mean, the technology in the window is fascinating. 00:07:21.80It's a computer you're replacing. 00:07:23.24Your car, I mean, if you go to a body shop, you don't see any person like in my young days with greasy, dirty, black hands and an overall which is full of dirt and oil. 00:07:36.30What is the first thing they do? 00:07:37.80They connect your car with a computer. 00:07:40.08They analyze your car with a computer. 00:07:42.46Every spare part is a computer thing. 00:07:45.04So within the insurance, the insurance is one thing, it's insured. 00:07:48.72But then if you have a crash, what comes behind it is completely different than 20 years ago. 00:07:53.62You cannot even compare it anymore. 00:07:55.38A guy with greasy hands, he would not even know how to open it. 00:08:00.04So no, honestly, I mean, so also there, technology. 00:08:03.68I mean, and then you have the lane assistance. 00:08:05.32You have the distance of the cars. 00:08:06.78It's all electronics in a car. 00:08:08.48Everything.
José Maria Pimentel 00:08:09.20So if you work there, that's your point. 00:08:10.84If you work there, you have to be constantly up to date to those changes.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:08:14.88Completely. 00:08:15.50Imagine today when a child born today, most people will say average age will be 85, 86, and they will not be very. 00:08:22.36But actually, if you take into account scientific discoveries over 100 years, a baby born today will live 120 years. 00:08:31.10Because 100 years back, people died earlier. 00:08:34.16But then during those 100 years, there was a lot of scientific, the science had progress and people lived longer. 00:08:39.44And there will be, in 100 years, there will be genomics, there will be 3D printing of organs, there will be implants. 00:08:45.48So people will, by the scientific progress in itself, add 20, 30 years to life expectancy. 00:08:53.60So also there, insurers have to know very well how life will evolve. 00:08:59.00Because imagine if we insure somebody and he's short of 30 years, that's 30 years of poverty. 00:09:04.58So you really have to have an open mind to what's happening in the world.
José Maria Pimentel 00:09:10.30Yeah, but you don't do that yet, right? 00:09:11.92So in your life, when you do life insurance... 00:09:13.58You follow all that. 00:09:14.32You have to follow it. 00:09:15.44No, no, no. 00:09:15.82My point is that in that particular case, you follow it, but you can't yet reflect that opinion into your mortality tables and whatnot. 00:09:24.22But you can anticipate that that will happen. 00:09:25.80Yeah. 00:09:26.18Yes, I understand your point. 00:09:27.36Interesting, yeah. 00:09:28.26And you mentioned the lack of sustainability on the agenda when you came. 00:09:31.58I found that interesting. 00:09:32.46So why do you think that is? 00:09:33.40Why do you think people were not even sort of aware of the issue? 00:09:38.32Still not, let's be very honest.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:09:41.68It has evolved a lot in very positive terms in Portugal. 00:09:45.60But still, for many enterprises and companies, it's definitely not number one. 00:09:51.02And in the end, if you want my personal opinion, anything which is sustainability is still today a luxury problem. 00:09:58.30Nothing more than a luxury problem. 00:10:00.32It's not an urgent problem. 00:10:02.10Because if it was an urgent problem, companies and organizations would at least commit 20-30% of their profits to sustainability or social impact funds or social investments that makes everything better. 00:10:16.66But it's not. 00:10:17.54It's all, I would call it still something on the website and something they deal with because they have to. 00:10:25.40Also, it's compliance to be compliant and also for sustainability indexes.
José Maria Pimentel 00:10:30.32But it's not an urgent problem. 00:10:32.10And why do you think that is, ultimately? 00:10:35.06Because it's not. 00:10:36.46Most human beings have a short notion of time. 00:10:39.60Yeah, that's why I was trying to get it.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:10:41.86And when I tell people that my grandfather told me that his grandfather died in the last hunger epitome in Belgium in 1845, I might be able to tell that to my grandchildren who might tell that to their grandchildren. 00:10:58.38So we have a span of 350-400 years. 00:11:01.18Just by my grandfather and me telling this sustainability place in 100 years. 00:11:07.54And what people do not realize is that today the people in power, because we're talking about today the people in power, should realize that they will love somebody who will love somebody who might die. 00:11:20.28Because of us not taking up this seriously. 00:11:22.94And I'm just telling the grandchildren's grandchildren. 00:11:26.42That's all. 00:11:27.20That's 100 years. 00:11:28.44So it's not so far. 00:11:30.00It's not so far. 00:11:30.88But we should not only do it for the grandchildren's grandchildren. 00:11:33.42We should first do it for us, our children, and every living being. 00:11:38.32Do I see urgency? 00:11:39.48Not at all. 00:11:40.54And this has to do with the second thing. 00:11:42.12So the first thing is timing. 00:11:43.88The second point is the rat in the wheel. 00:11:47.44Nothing is more easy for people to continue to do what they always have been doing. 00:11:51.70The rat in the wheel. 00:11:53.02It's difficult to stop the wheel. 00:11:54.82And so companies are focused on analyst reports, investors. 00:11:58.74Every three months we meet. 00:12:00.10What is the dividend growth? 00:12:01.38What is the return on target capital? 00:12:03.58These are terms that we're very comfortable with. 00:12:07.10And so nothing more easier than every three weeks meeting people and say, you know, we hit our targets. 00:12:11.86We hit our KPIs. 00:12:13.64Yes, the planet is okay, but the planet, I mean, who cares? 00:12:16.56I mean, more plastic in the sea or acidification of the ocean, of the nitrification of the ocean, of the fact that the 40 centimeters of soil of which the whole humankind is living off is being destroyed. 00:12:28.66Who cares about that? 00:12:29.72I mean, nobody. 00:12:30.44Nobody of the analysts are asking me what you're going to do about the soil or what you're doing about the microplastics and all the fish. 00:12:36.64So I don't care.
José Maria Pimentel 00:12:37.76Yeah, we already have a full agenda comprised of the other stuff, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:12:41.88And so it's this rat race, which is very, I would say, people are at ease with it. 00:12:47.44It's very common. 00:12:49.36I'm in my comfort zone in that area.
José Maria Pimentel 00:12:52.94The rest, you need to get out of your current zone. 00:12:55.52And it calls upon courage. 00:12:57.88And not many people in business have courage to break this kind of rat in the wheel. 00:13:03.88It's interesting, but both aspects you described, they are about human nature and society ultimately. 00:13:09.78But they are generic. 00:13:10.54They don't apply specifically to Portugal. 00:13:12.00So what do you think?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:13:12.88No, no, no. 00:13:13.32When I arrived, it was like this. 00:13:15.16I would say that, of course, the more north you go, Scandinavia, for example, is much more advanced than that. 00:13:20.72Much more progress. 00:13:22.06Also, Holland is there. 00:13:23.70I wouldn't say that Belgium is so excellent than that. 00:13:26.28No way. 00:13:27.46You have some countries by culture who are closer with nature than others, and they are more advanced.
José Maria Pimentel 00:13:33.36Ah, interesting. 00:13:33.92You think it has to do with being close to nature. 00:13:36.10Interesting. 00:13:36.66I think so, yeah. 00:13:37.52And how children, everybody has been educated and respect to nature. 00:13:41.42It's interesting you say that. 00:13:42.64When I was hearing you, I was thinking more of an explanation around tendency to plan long term. 00:13:48.74You know that trade-off between the urgent and the important. 00:13:51.60Of course, the important is, that's the relevant stuff long term, such as sustainability. 00:13:55.96But sometimes the urgent goes on top of the important because it feels more urgent and you have to do it. 00:14:01.08And one thing I'm curious to know your perspective, because you work in Portugal now, or you worked in Portugal until very recently, but you have a long career abroad. 00:14:09.34And I think one challenge we face here many times, institutionally, is to plan long term. 00:14:14.90And sustainability is precisely one issue in which it requires a long term perspective. 00:14:19.14Otherwise, you can't do it.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:14:20.86If I would compare cultures, I mean, every culture is beautiful. 00:14:24.16Honestly, let's start with that, right? 00:14:25.86I mean, I love to live in every country and every country has its positives and its negatives. 00:14:30.56I mean, when I lived in Singapore and Hong Kong, for the hundred thousands of operations we did a month, if there were two mistakes, it was a lot. 00:14:39.82And I had to kind of put a serious face because they came with a whole file indicating that it was loss of face for the department, for the manager, for the employee. 00:14:50.18And they were going to put it in its personal file. 00:14:52.70When I lived in Mexico, if we had two good operations out of 100,000, that was success. 00:14:58.52Ah, what's all? 00:14:59.50Okay, let's do it again. 00:15:00.64Okay, then you have 50,000. 00:15:01.96Ah, let's do it again. 00:15:03.34I would say there's no proud of doing things correctly from the first time. 00:15:06.82It's a, yeah, it was like, okay, I mean, we're going to do it again. 00:15:10.74Okay, Portugal is not Singapore or Asia, but it's not Mexico either. 00:15:16.12But there is a kind of what you're saying, a lack of long-term planning. 00:15:21.46For example, my meetings are always planned within the next 12 months. 00:15:25.64And I know that my colleagues were always saying, but how can you plan? 00:15:29.30I mean, we never plan more than two weeks meetings. 00:15:32.08I said, no, no, no. 00:15:33.18All my meetings are planned for 12 months ahead. 00:15:35.90So nobody can say they didn't know. 00:15:37.90It's in your agendas, it's strict, I don't surprise anybody. 00:15:42.40I am not like other Portuguese CEOs saying, oh, I want to have a meeting. 00:15:47.52Come over, come up. 00:15:48.70Yeah, but I have a meeting. 00:15:49.46No, no, no. 00:15:49.92Change your agenda, yeah. 00:15:51.12I need it. 00:15:51.90And so they have to start making a chaos because their meetings have to be replanned, all the other meetings are planned. 00:15:57.22No, you don't do that. 00:15:58.54When I asked for meetings, I first said, you have to look in your schedule if we can have a meeting. 00:16:03.56I'm not imposing. 00:16:04.64So it's about respect of the time of the others. 00:16:07.90And also being ready that, okay, I would like to have a meeting. 00:16:11.26Let's plan. 00:16:11.72I will plan that three weeks ahead. 00:16:13.74So that that's all okay. 00:16:15.18So that people can plan comfortably in order and that you don't upset agendas of nothing. 00:16:21.48So that's very structured, disciplined way of working. 00:16:24.88This is something where I had many problems or I saw many problems in Portugal.
José Maria Pimentel 00:16:30.60But do you think it has to do in that case with a lack of long-term planning? 00:16:35.78So you mentioned that it's very customary for CEOs to just out of the blue set an agenda for the next day or the next week and then disrupt everyone's agendas. 00:16:44.56Does that have to do with their lack of ability to plan long-term or to an hierarchical structure which enables them to do that?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:16:50.60I was going to say, it is more to do with a very old-fashioned hierarchical structure that the CEO is all-powerful and his will is law and everybody should listen to what the CEO is saying while I have a complete different opinion. 00:17:07.22The CEO for me is a conductor and the ones who are playing is the people who have the orchestra is the exec committee, the senior management, the management, all the people. 00:17:19.16The CEO is the chief ability, the guy who makes the things work, who makes it possible that things work and nothing else. 00:17:28.10He's not an executive. 00:17:29.92I never saw a chief executive officer. 00:17:32.92I mean, they don't execute, right? 00:17:35.38It's somebody who makes it... 00:17:36.74I always said I'm the chief emotional officer. 00:17:39.10the people who make things work, who plan. 00:17:42.74And then the composition, that's the strategy. 00:17:45.34So the composition, what everybody's playing, that's the strategy. 00:17:48.48And it's up to the CEO to make sure that the strategy is well put in place amongst all players of the orchestra. 00:17:56.62I think the Portuguese way of looking upon things is more of I have to say I am the authority and I'm the person saying things. 00:18:05.82I'm the one who knows. 00:18:06.92In a lot of cases, yes. 00:18:08.54I always have tried always the kind of Hegel, thesis, antithesis, synthesis, right? 00:18:14.46You put something, you listen to what everybody has to say and you come to a better decision by listening to all the arguments and you come to the synthesis, which makes that also
José Maria Pimentel 00:18:25.12the final decision is carried by more than only one person. 00:18:29.78It's interesting you say that because it's very hard for a decision to be completely right from the onset. 00:18:35.90Never. 00:18:36.38It's almost impossible. 00:18:37.36Yeah. 00:18:37.72So you have to have a way to iterate, which is another word for the Hegelian approach, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:18:45.62And what I see today is that the big, big struggle that is going to happen in the coming years is to move from output to outcome. 00:18:59.34Most CEOs, most companies are focused on output. 00:19:03.80KPIs on growth of earnings, growth of income, growth of profit, KPIs on return, etc. 00:19:09.92It's what you can measure more easily. 00:19:11.64Yes, output. 00:19:13.24The outcome, what they want to do, what the impact is for society, why you do it, why you do something is still not there. 00:19:22.92They're just the rat in the wheel again. 00:19:24.88Again, yeah. 00:19:25.70And that's not why oikonomia, in the old term, was how you make sure that everybody has access to goods. 00:19:35.88This has changed. 00:19:37.14So you have to go back to the outcomes. 00:19:40.06Why do we do all that? 00:19:42.02Why do we work from morning to evenings? 00:19:44.46Is it only to have a salary or has economy, companies, a meaning? 00:19:49.66Has it a purpose in society? 00:19:51.82And that's something that most of the companies are not looking at yet.
José Maria Pimentel 00:19:56.86Yeah, it's in a sense a bit the urgent versus important dichotomy again. 00:20:01.86Let me go back to the hierarchy discussion. 00:20:05.34Whenever you have a common diagnosis, but things still don't change, it means that there's a deeper cause that's preventing it from change. 00:20:12.06And this is why I'm interested in your perspective, because you came from the outside. 00:20:15.62Whenever I speak to people in management positions about that, and they say, oh, you should delegate more. 00:20:20.14Or you should, you know, have that profile you just described. 00:20:22.90What they'll tell me is that, yeah, ideally I should, but I can trust people under me. 00:20:27.30Like, they don't have the right knowledge. 00:20:28.96If I'm not there seeing, or if I'm not intervening, they won't do it. 00:20:33.34And sometimes these people might be right to the sense that we still have a very, in some parts, an unskilled labor force. 00:20:40.30So people might not have university degrees, or they might have, but they don't have the right experience. 00:20:43.80So in some cases, it's very hard for me to persuade people that are having this conversation against that. 00:20:49.42Because last time I did that, and then they just ruined the decision. 00:20:52.88So if I take my hand out of the leash, as it were, it doesn't work. 00:20:55.94But with you, apparently it works. 00:20:58.06So it means that this is wrong. 00:20:59.74Well, I always had a kind of term of garbage manager in front of me.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:21:03.76You know, the ones, you probably know the one who takes the monkey on the shoulder. 00:21:07.64It's a type of manager who does not trust his people, and therefore wants to be involved in everything and takes everything on his shoulder. 00:21:14.88So every time there's a problem, he says, problem is the monkey, put it on my shoulder. 00:21:19.02And so in the end, he gets shoulders full of monkeys, which is, if there's garbage, give it to me. 00:21:23.30I will solve it because I know, which is completely wrong, of course. 00:21:26.96Because what happens is that you create stress all over the company. 00:21:30.42Because he has a monkey, he will not keep his monkeys on his shoulders. 00:21:33.74He will put the monkey somewhere else on another one's shoulder. 00:21:36.52But they're not paid to do that. 00:21:38.92So as they're not paid to do that, but yeah, I mean, the hierarchy is saying to do it. 00:21:43.50So everybody gets overweighted with what they have to do. 00:21:47.22I believe that a CEO, somebody at a high level, only has one task. 00:21:52.48It's to squeeze the person like a lemon in potential. 00:21:57.12I believe the task from everybody is to elevate people in their potential. 00:22:01.66Sometimes people do not want, and you have to respect that. 00:22:05.00People say, I have imbalance, I have little children I don't want, it's not my timing yet. 00:22:09.40Fine, no problem. 00:22:10.78But it's detecting the potential in people. 00:22:13.50If, like you say, this person is surrounded by unskilled persons, number one, he should try to elevate them. 00:22:20.66If that is not possible, he has to remove them. 00:22:23.10Change the people or change the people. 00:22:25.34That's a slogan which is very, change the people or change the people. 00:22:30.34Because you cannot continue to work with people who do not have potential. 00:22:34.72For example, myself, I know I'm a very chaotic person. 00:22:37.70I'm an artistic person. 00:22:40.10I'm probably more a poet than, let's say, a pure numerical guy while I was 10 years a trader. 00:22:46.82So, I only had figures. 00:22:48.06I have dealt with figures for years, years, years. 00:22:50.36But in the end, I have a more artistic mind. 00:22:53.78So, I know I have to surround me with people who are extremely structured and very disciplined. 00:22:58.94And everybody knows that. 00:23:00.42I never keep my emails. 00:23:01.72I delete all my mails. 00:23:02.84Can you imagine? 00:23:03.80Because I know myself. 00:23:05.88I mean, my assistant, she is always laughing at me. 00:23:08.48I never find an email back. 00:23:09.66Never, never, never. 00:23:10.80But if I need something, I tell her, you know, four years ago, that guy sent me a mail once. 00:23:16.54Can you find that back? 00:23:17.98She finds it back. 00:23:19.48So, the person, you have to surround yourself with people of which you definitely don't have the talents. 00:23:25.16Where they're complementary to you. 00:23:27.18And I'm sorry to say so, but if there's no trust, come on. 00:23:32.08That's the basic. 00:23:33.52Yeah, it's a trust issue. 00:23:34.36The ABC of having teams is having trust. 00:23:38.90Everywhere where I arrived, I always worked with the people who were in the company. 00:23:43.08Unless I saw they were not skilled. 00:23:45.16Even if I tried, I tried second chances, et cetera, et cetera. 00:23:48.64But you roll with the reams with what you have.
José Maria Pimentel 00:23:52.48And in the end, they might surprise you. 00:23:54.08Also because it's an iterative process again. 00:23:56.38So, it might take some time, but people surprise you. 00:23:59.74So, yeah, it's an issue of trust. 00:24:01.58And then it has a perverse effect. 00:24:03.68I don't know if you've come across this, if you have this experience. 00:24:06.44But when you work in an hierarchical structure, that's an equilibrium that's, in a sense, useful for both sides. 00:24:13.78So, it's useful for the person on top because that person has a lot of power. 00:24:17.06But for the people underneath, it also removes responsibility from them. 00:24:21.70And so, they say, there's a problem. 00:24:23.04Oh, this is not my problem. 00:24:24.28That guy is being paid a lot. 00:24:25.66You should do it. 00:24:26.50It's not me, right? 00:24:27.66Which is perverse in its own way. 00:24:29.50And then you have, like, say, you have a town hall. 00:24:31.42People are supposed to speak up. 00:24:32.88Why will I speak up? 00:24:33.76Like, they should know. 00:24:34.56They are paid a lot. 00:24:35.24They should know. 00:24:35.66I don't need to say it.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:24:36.84But that's actually the culture that, when I arrived, we changed a lot. 00:24:41.60I always spoke half an hour with all the newcomers in the company. 00:24:44.74That's a lot of time, I can tell you. 00:24:46.66But people is the only thing we have in a company. 00:24:50.34I mean, walls, computers, phones, that's all replaceable. 00:24:54.58But your culture in a company is made by people. 00:24:58.78And so, every newcomer had half an hour with me, not to talk about business, but what makes your heart tick? 00:25:04.90What makes you passionate? 00:25:06.56And mostly, I always asked, what's your purpose on earth? 00:25:09.72Why are you on earth? 00:25:11.54Why? 00:25:12.34And that's important, I believe, because if my purpose would be to save the frocks in Sierra de Estrella, for example, imagine that this is my purpose. 00:25:21.50I want to save the frocks in Sierra de Estrella, and I'm going to work for a G as an insurance company. 00:25:26.38Sooner or later, I will have a problem, because my personal purpose in life, I mean, it's very far away of what I spend 10 hours or 8 hours a day in. 00:25:37.30So, somehow, why I ask this every time to all the people, because to be sure that purpose, why are you on earth? 00:25:45.46I mean, you know that there are two important moments in life, the moment you're born, and the moment you know why you're born. 00:25:52.26That's purpose. 00:25:53.56And so, if you can work in a company that one way or another is kind of fulfilling your purpose, that's a much easier place to work in. 00:26:03.92And that's why I tell people, if you don't like the strategy, move on. 00:26:08.14Move on. 00:26:09.22This was something new in the company when I told that. 00:26:11.62When I told people, if you don't feel comfortable with our strategy, move on. 00:26:15.66Life is too short. 00:26:16.86You have to have fun in life. 00:26:18.80There will be some other companies where you have fun. 00:26:20.68Have fun in life.
José Maria Pimentel 00:26:22.02Yeah, it's normal. 00:26:22.66You go out and you get in again. 00:26:24.06And what's your purpose? 00:26:25.66What's your answer to this?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:26:27.52Impact. 00:26:28.72And I have been a very lucky person, very lucky man, that being the CEO, I could have impact. 00:26:35.70Firstly, and now, I mean, I'm gone since not CEO since a month anymore. 00:26:40.58And now is a transition period where I have to look how I'm going to move from an institutional position, because a CEO in the end is a kind of institution. 00:26:49.32You don't misuse it. 00:26:50.58That's not what I'm saying. 00:26:51.34But it's still an institution which gives you power to have impact in society. 00:26:56.34So I'm in this transition phase where I have to move from how do I have impact in society from a CEO level to having impact as just little Stephen in the world. 00:27:07.52How can I do that? 00:27:08.40So to continue my purpose, having impact, but not from an institutional level, but from a personal little Stephen, just an individual like anybody else who have to have impact in society.
José Maria Pimentel 00:27:19.00I was going to say lucky is not the right word, but you are in a good position in the sense that you've built some of that before you left office, right? 00:27:27.22So you've published books. 00:27:28.84You have more books on the way, as far as I know. 00:27:31.14So you've started building the new edifice before you left the previous one, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:27:36.48But that's necessary because you have to, you know, statistically in life insurance, there's a big peak two years after retirement. 00:27:45.48A lot of men die. 00:27:46.96Especially men. 00:27:47.96Yes. 00:27:48.32Especially men. 00:27:49.54Because they're workaholic, because they're addicted to their jobs. 00:27:52.26They don't have any hobbies. 00:27:53.64They work, work, work. 00:27:54.80And then they fall into a black gap. 00:27:56.50And that has impacts in their body, in their chemistry of their body, in the mental health and everything. 00:28:02.42And you always have a peak, like two years, people dying two years after their retirement. 00:28:08.30So it's important. 00:28:09.70And again, companies are not putting enough effort in how do you move for somebody who has been working 35, 40 years towards a period of that he is not working anymore. 00:28:21.82Or it's something that society has not dealt very well with. 00:28:26.42How to prepare all that.
José Maria Pimentel 00:28:28.10Which is a puzzle because it's so obvious. 00:28:30.18But still, you know, it's incredible. 00:28:32.24But it's true. 00:28:32.94It's absolutely true. 00:28:33.90But it's such an obvious problem that it still puzzles me. 00:28:37.64Yeah, but it's incredible how many people you meet who have no hobbies. 00:28:41.02I mean, their hobby is their status.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:28:43.30What car do I drive? 00:28:45.18How will people see me? 00:28:46.92Et cetera, et cetera.
José Maria Pimentel 00:28:47.60It's incredible how many people have no other interests or know how to fill their days. 00:28:54.50Why do you think that is? 00:28:55.24Because that's, again, sort of planning long term, right? 00:28:58.16So your hobbies are your... 00:28:59.88Actually, I was having lunch with a cousin of mine. 00:29:02.52And we were having a very similar conversation. 00:29:04.56And he's about... 00:29:05.20He's almost 50. 00:29:06.36Still far from retiring, but already kind of with insight. 00:29:09.36Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:29:09.58And he was saying, well, I'm trying to diversify my hobbies so that I... 00:29:12.72But it's important. 00:29:13.78Yeah, but not many people do that. 00:29:15.44Like, no. 00:29:15.68And why? 00:29:16.82Yeah.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:29:17.42I mean, I'm sure that if I listen to your cousin, that he is well-read, that he knows what... 00:29:23.38That being interested in so many things is important for the brain, for mental health, for everything. 00:29:30.42And also, it is what gives you pleasure. 00:29:33.68I mean, nobody is going to thank you because you worked 35 years in a company or something. 00:29:37.72I mean, you have your salary, you were paid for it, and it's not where you should have your sole pleasure from. 00:29:44.42There's so many other things in life that people should be doing. 00:29:47.94That's, for example, why when I arrived here in Portugal, it was still... 00:29:51.94I mean, the company, they were still doing paintball, bowling for team... 00:29:55.36Team building. 00:29:56.20And I said, no way, this is going to stop. 00:29:59.38Every team building must have a social impact. 00:30:02.42And so, what we do see, after so many years having that, so we are helping nursing homes, all kinds of things that we are helping society with organizations who have no money. 00:30:13.70But what we do see is that the percentage of people, of our employees, who are now active in helping NGOs, has increased percentage. 00:30:22.92Because for many people, it's not easy to talk or to make that step to meet poor people. 00:30:29.22They're afraid this step is difficult to... 00:30:31.36Of course. 00:30:31.90It's difficult to meet poor people if you want to meet poor... 00:30:34.72Of course, you can do, but it's not easy. 00:30:36.62No, no, absolutely.
José Maria Pimentel 00:30:37.24Like, in theory, you would like, but then...
Steven Braekeveldt 00:30:39.60Yes, but it's not easy. 00:30:40.58And so, by having this now in place for many years, we increased a lot, the percentage of people who now, in their free time, help NGOs because they see, through having gone through many of these exercises, actually, it's not that difficult. 00:30:56.26It's not that difficult to help people, to help NGOs, to be there. 00:31:00.40And so, again, indirectly as a company, you live the values and you give something back to society.
José Maria Pimentel 00:31:07.56Interesting. 00:31:08.22And you're kind of nudging people towards that direction. 00:31:12.66And if it's not within their motivation, they won't do it. 00:31:16.36But if it is and they just need the nudge, that's curious because I never thought of it. 00:31:20.54But, yeah, it's kind of stupid that team buildings are usually around those things which are fun but kind of inconsequential, right? 00:31:28.50Like if the paintball and so what, like they are fun. 00:31:31.10They might be good to build team spirit. 00:31:33.46In some cases, they are not even good for that purpose. 00:31:36.32But sometimes they are. 00:31:37.88But they are inconsequential. 00:31:39.16Like they are pleasurable but they don't have any impact. 00:31:42.06But you know how much fun we have in having the last thing. 00:31:45.14Yeah, it's not really a trade-off, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:31:46.32The week before I left, the people who reported to me, we went in painting a boxing area in the poorest quarter of Lisbon. 00:31:55.28For 30 years, nobody touched it. 00:31:57.94It was dirty, dusty, black, everything. 00:32:01.94We put it anew. 00:32:03.58I mean, you know how much pleasure we had by painting all together. 00:32:07.44We're doing these things. 00:32:08.74So you can have a lot of fun and still have being consequential for society. 00:32:14.24It's just a mindset. 00:32:15.64You know, the mindset is everything. 00:32:17.22It lets me think to when COVID started, I had two options. 00:32:21.34So there were no cars on the road. 00:32:22.82So there were no accidents. 00:32:24.40So we could have said, okay, we're going to lay off all these people temporarily because the law foresaw it. 00:32:29.72But we changed our company into a textile company. 00:32:32.78You're saying a boring company? 00:32:34.66So I called the chairwoman of the hotel association. 00:32:37.62I said, do you have sheets too much in your hotels? 00:32:40.16I said, yeah, I can look for it. 00:32:41.66Okay, I said, if you have, let the hotels deliver the sheets to Aegeus. 00:32:45.48Then I called the CEO of a sewing company. 00:32:48.90I said, would you be willing to sell your sewing machines at cost? 00:32:52.96For this purpose to make mouth masks. 00:32:55.90And he said, ah, yes. 00:32:57.22Because nobody had mouth masks, depending on the nursing homes. 00:33:01.62Nobody had mouth masks. 00:33:03.44And so we had the teams of our Aegeus Repara, who is doing the leakage detection. 00:33:09.36I mean, they could not go to the home, so they didn't have work either. 00:33:12.20And they were working in our garages to make packages to our employees.
José Maria Pimentel 00:33:19.48And they, after a while, we were making 3,000 mouth masks. 00:33:23.82Who was making the masks? 00:33:24.90Our employees. 00:33:25.86But did they know how to do it? 00:33:27.04I mean, there was an instruction on how to do it. 00:33:28.50Ah, it was not that difficult. 00:33:29.66Okay. 00:33:29.84No, no, it's not that difficult, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:33:31.62Interesting. 00:33:32.06You see, there's always purpose. 00:33:34.78And so instead of having nothing to do, actually, many of our employees had a purpose. 00:33:40.60They were helping society because on the news, it was the whole time, no mouth masks, we cannot buy them, etc., etc. 00:33:47.00So we were delivering mouth masks with our car through nursing homes, hospitals, etc., etc. 00:33:53.26So every crisis gives you opportunities to do something, but you have to think differently.
José Maria Pimentel 00:33:58.80Yes, exactly. 00:33:59.62Contribua para a continuidade e crescimento deste projeto no site 45gorauspodcast.com. 00:34:08.38Selecione a opção Apoiar para ver como contribuir, diretamente ou através do Patreon, bem como os benefícios associados a cada modalidade. 00:34:17.00It's so commonplace to say that nowadays, what you just said, that the crisis is an opportunity. 00:34:24.24But still, it's something that I feel is not often fulfilled because it is true. 00:34:28.84Whenever something changes, it might have bad consequences, but there are almost always good things that you can take out of it. 00:34:35.94Even in our lives, you miss the train. 00:34:38.70Yeah. 00:34:38.98Oh, shit, I miss the train. 00:34:40.22But if you think about it, there might be something good that you can take out of it. 00:34:43.62Maybe you can read that book that you have been putting off for so long or whatever.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:34:46.74Well, it's good that you mention that because, you know, I always try to read since many years between 60 and 90 books a year. 00:34:54.30And that comes also because I change what other people call boring times into quality time. 00:35:00.04I am never, never angry that the plane is too late, that the train is too late. 00:35:04.76I always carry a book, always, wherever I go. 00:35:07.72Even if I have to wait three minutes, I will be reading a book. 00:35:11.06And you change also, again, it's a mental shift in making something where people get so annoyed and angry towards quality time. 00:35:19.68I'm thinking, the plane is one hour late. 00:35:22.00Great. 00:35:22.90One hour of reading. 00:35:24.34I mean, I don't have that much time to read one hour extra. 00:35:28.62So one hour extra reading. 00:35:29.96Amazing, right? 00:35:30.96Fantastic.
José Maria Pimentel 00:35:32.10Yeah, I'll do the same. 00:35:33.14That's actually a big part of the reason I started listening to podcasts back in, I don't know, 2007. 00:35:38.72So a long time ago. 00:35:39.36And then eventually, I ended up doing a podcast myself. 00:35:42.22Do you listen to podcasts? 00:35:43.30Not enough. 00:35:43.98There you go. 00:35:44.28I'm your age bracket. 00:35:45.56Yeah.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:35:46.16But there's a trade-off if you read so many books. 00:35:49.64Yeah, but they're very interesting podcasts. 00:35:51.98They're very interesting ones.
José Maria Pimentel 00:35:53.24I mean, I listen to some, not enough, because there's a lot of knowledge out there and very good speakers. 00:35:59.10And I should discipline me more to listen, more to podcasts, because they're very good ones. 00:36:04.08And it's something that you can do in some situations in which you're not able to read, like, I don't know, walking and whatnot. 00:36:10.42I have a very similar approach to these type of situations. 00:36:14.12For instance, when I'm in traffic, this, again, applies to podcasts, not to books specifically. 00:36:18.36But, you know, when you're stuck in traffic, if I'm listening to a podcast, I don't really care so much, unless I really need to be, I don't know, I need to pick my daughters from school. 00:36:25.92Then, of course, it's not good. 00:36:27.56But otherwise, I don't really care too much. 00:36:30.04So I have that approach. 00:36:30.84But there's one challenge I find myself, and I would imagine you find it even more, which has not to do with time per se. 00:36:38.08But I'm not sure what's the right expression in English for this. 00:36:41.12But I would say in Portuguese, mental space. 00:36:43.70So let's say you have a demanding job, which means that you not only have to do, but you have to think and to plan ahead and to strategize and reflect and decide. 00:36:52.68And that means that when you stop, when you have time, your brain will start automatically thinking about those important things that you have to decide on. 00:37:01.22And so even if you start reading a book, you know that effect. 00:37:04.04Like you start on the first page and then a half page through, your mind just wanders to something else because you have important stuff on your mind. 00:37:10.48And that's what I'm really curious about. 00:37:11.92How can you manage that? 00:37:13.04How can you stave off that?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:37:15.42Again, I was lucky to start, I'm talking about the 80s now. 00:37:20.78I was a trader. 00:37:22.26So I started in banking like you, but then I saw the light. 00:37:25.64I went into insurance, right? 00:37:28.72So, but I started as a trader in derivatives and foreign exchange. 00:37:34.24And these are the days where you were still those old movies where you were three phones on the head, shouting all over the place. 00:37:41.06You needed to have three conversations at the same time. 00:37:43.92So you had to be very concentrated and with click phones, et cetera, you could switch from one customer to another. 00:37:50.82But you were actually continuously talking three conversations at the same time, three quotes, selling, buying with three customers, four customers, continuously. 00:37:59.86Which means that I have learned then to kind of switch my brain very rapidly and be immediately concentrated. 00:38:09.42And that's what I believe still today somehow is trained in my head. 00:38:13.88That's why even three minutes I have to wait. 00:38:16.18I start reading. 00:38:17.12I'm reading. 00:38:17.96I'm reading. 00:38:18.94I am completely concentrated on my reading. 00:38:20.96If I'm working, I am concentrated on my working. 00:38:24.44Completely concentrated on my working. 00:38:26.14And probably that dates back from those 10 years being so trained in you have to do something.
José Maria Pimentel 00:38:32.74You're concentrated on that thing. 00:38:34.58Interesting. 00:38:35.14But let me pressure you a bit on that because I would buy that completely from a very, you know, engineer type of person. 00:38:42.04Very structured, very, you know, typical person who puts things in different boxes. 00:38:45.98And you think I'm not. 00:38:46.56No, I think you're a creative type of person. 00:38:48.50Yes. 00:38:48.88This is a compliment. 00:38:50.70Actually, it's not. 00:38:51.68It's neither a compliment nor a criticism. 00:38:53.36It's just a correct critique of yours of which I already had the impression and you said it, I don't know, half an hour ago or something. 00:39:00.82And creativity comes from those empty spaces, right? 00:39:04.04So creativity comes from what your brain is doing when you're kind of wandering off and not thinking about something. 00:39:11.02And that means that the price to pay for creativity usually is not being able to focus so much in such a narrow sense on a task. 00:39:17.86But apparently you're able to kind of square the circle here, which I'm surprised.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:39:22.60I'm sort of jealous. 00:39:23.72I started off as a pure left brain guy. 00:39:26.62I mean, 10 years training, it's only numbers. 00:39:29.00And then being in Hong Kong, Singapore, as a CEO of a bank. 00:39:32.48So, I mean, it's only figures, numbers, numbers, numbers. 00:39:35.16So somehow my left brain has been trained a lot. 00:39:39.16But at the same time, I was a huge reader, writer. 00:39:43.34I have been singing on stage and still love to sing. 00:39:46.86This evening, I'm going to have dinner with a singer, a Belgian singer. 00:39:50.40And I told him, when can we sing again together on stage once? 00:39:53.70Because I love to sing on stage. 00:39:55.84And so let's see what we can do. 00:39:57.46And so I have always had this kind of tendency also for artistic things, which is the right brain. 00:40:03.30When I arrived here in Singapore, we started with the G as the Singularity University. 00:40:08.30We brought Singularity University here with Beta E, with Cascades, Community of Cascades. 00:40:14.18And that's the left brain concentration, purely of technology. 00:40:17.88And then we partnered with the House of Beautiful Business. 00:40:21.06Why? 00:40:21.88Because Singularity University is great. 00:40:24.60It gives you a view where technology, where the world is going, from a more engineering side. 00:40:30.46But it doesn't give you satisfaction of why we're doing things and how we're doing things. 00:40:35.66And so we partnered with the House of Beautiful Business, because it is more concentrated on the right brain and how are human interactions, what do you do, how you organize it. 00:40:47.60And so it's always this kind of balance between both brains, which is very important.
José Maria Pimentel 00:40:53.42I don't know if I answered your question. 00:40:55.08Probably not. 00:40:56.80I was thinking if you have. 00:40:59.26I don't think you have, but I'm not sure there's an answer. 00:41:02.84So it's just the way you are. 00:41:04.00Like you're able to, and that's good, you're able to kind of having it both ways.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:41:08.78Yeah. 00:41:09.18Which is great. 00:41:09.88I know my colleagues sometimes told me, Stephen, stop with all these ideas. 00:41:14.06I said, no, this is not my task. 00:41:16.08My task is to give you so many ideas. 00:41:18.46It's up to you to tell me if you can take it up or not, or if there's money in it or not. 00:41:22.04But I will continue to push, push, push.
José Maria Pimentel 00:41:25.08How and when do they come to you? 00:41:26.68The whole time. 00:41:27.88But not when you're reading. 00:41:29.18No. 00:41:30.02Nor when you're working. 00:41:31.54Well, sometimes.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:41:32.88Because you meet people. 00:41:34.46And so sometimes, even if you're working, you meet people and you catch something and you say, hmm, that's a characteristic I need to keep and give to one of my personalities in my book. 00:41:44.48So you always can have, see things in people.
José Maria Pimentel 00:41:47.66So I'm trying to square those two facts, that creativity works in that way and the fact that you're able to, like, at 100% in each time. 00:41:55.30So maybe what's happening, and that's interesting, is that the ideas are kind of piling up in your subconscious when you're, say, reading. 00:42:03.32And then they come up later on, but all at the same time as it were.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:42:06.62I wouldn't say at the same time, but probably, I mean, a lot is being stored. 00:42:10.92And then sometimes I start laughing, because I have such a crazy idea that I'm thinking, this is so crazy. 00:42:17.50I mean, for example, now my second book is published in Belgium. 00:42:21.16I had to reread it, and I was actually laughing with my own stories. 00:42:24.92I mean, I never knew what I was writing down, actually. 00:42:28.14I mean, this was, and I'm thinking, where the hell did you get that idea? 00:42:31.84Because, of course, this is written a long time ago, before it goes to publishing, et cetera. 00:42:35.90So it's, and then you start reading, saying, where did I get that idea? 00:42:40.24I mean, it's incredible.
José Maria Pimentel 00:42:41.70Not only do you read a lot, but you have a wide net, so you read about different topics. 00:42:46.00You know the reason behind the name for this podcast? 00:42:49.12It's called 45 Graus, meaning 44 degree in the sense of the angle. 00:42:53.10And it kind of symbolizes the intersection between different topics. 00:42:57.24Because I feel that a lot of times what happens is that if you're curious about different things and you read about different topics, sometimes topic A will give you an idea to solve an issue on topic B or to form an opinion on topic B. 00:43:09.48And that's fascinating. 00:43:11.20It's the whole purpose of this podcast is to try and find that. 00:43:15.16Young people ask me a lot of times, what should I do to have a career?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:43:19.62And I'm telling them, you should go to heavy metal concerts. 00:43:22.86And then they're all looking like me, like, oh, this guy is not very good in the head. 00:43:27.94And I'm saying, yeah, you should go to heavy metal concerts. 00:43:30.52You should go to ballet. 00:43:32.18You should go to classical music. 00:43:34.06You should go to musea. 00:43:36.38Look at contemporary art, but also art from the Middle Ages. 00:43:40.80You should read about astrology, anthropology. 00:43:44.56You should read history. 00:43:46.02You should know why bees are flying the way they fly. 00:43:48.74You should know why ants are walking on a line. 00:43:51.38You should read about everything and do everything. 00:43:55.86And I'm telling them, why do I say that to have a career? 00:43:59.48Because now I'm, of course, at the end of my career. 00:44:03.40It's when I meet or I have M&A deals to do, merchant acquisitions with other CEOs, we talk 20 minutes about the topic. 00:44:11.94No more. 00:44:13.10You go straight into the topics and you discuss it. 00:44:15.98And for one hour and a half, you try to connect with the person. 00:44:19.80What makes him tick? 00:44:21.14What is interesting to him? 00:44:22.76So that you can feel that there's a connection. 00:44:25.60Because in the end, what you want is that when you call, he picks up the phone or she picks up the phone. 00:44:30.66That's it. 00:44:30.94Oh, this guy was an interesting guy or I had a good connection with the guy. 00:44:35.62He's trustworthy. 00:44:36.92He is transparent. 00:44:38.42He knows what he wants. 00:44:40.00He's very open. 00:44:41.66So that's it. 00:44:42.30That's what you're looking for is that pick up the phone. 00:44:45.74And for that, if you have somebody in front of you who is a huge collector of little teaspoons, well, you must be able to talk about collecting teaspoons or whatever. 00:44:54.62And you need a knowledge which is extremely broad from, you might have a CEO who is very interested in heavy metal, somebody else in ballet, somebody else in ants or bees or whatever.
José Maria Pimentel 00:45:05.48That's why I find doing this podcast has been very useful for having a wide range of topics you're at least moderately acquainted with whenever you have a discussion with someone. 00:45:15.86It must be fascinating for you. 00:45:17.42First of all, it's motivating because it's fascinating for me.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:45:20.70So you're actually doing this podcast for egoistic reasons.
José Maria Pimentel 00:45:22.86That's the point, right? 00:45:23.92There you go. 00:45:24.48I always say that. 00:45:26.76Actually, that's a trick, right? 00:45:28.04Is to find a balance between something which has an impact and you like, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:45:32.00And to have joy in the work. 00:45:33.02Exactly, yeah.
José Maria Pimentel 00:45:33.78But in the end, obviously, the core is always egotistical in the sense that you're doing something like… 00:45:38.82But to go back to your approach. 00:45:39.96So your approach is to first, whenever you meet someone, is to first take care of the topic and then meet the person? 00:45:46.48Or do you do kind of a bit of a small talk and then put the topic in the middle or put it towards the end? 00:45:51.56I'm quite direct.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:45:52.82You get what you see and you see what you get. 00:45:54.70I will not go talking about your weekend. 00:45:57.88I mean, it's also a topic which is typically cultural Portuguese when they have the front tour. 00:46:03.00You have the norms of introduction that you have to know how it went and with the father and the mother and the aunt and the children. 00:46:20.40And then they come to the topic. 00:46:22.08And then ending, you cannot end. 00:46:24.02You cannot say, bye. 00:46:25.12No. 00:46:25.40You have to end in a certain way. 00:46:28.50And then five times, be genius, be genius, be genius. 00:46:32.06So you see this, but I'm quite straight and direct.
José Maria Pimentel 00:46:36.38Yeah, the ending is very puzzling. 00:46:37.86Even to me. 00:46:38.72I never receive phone calls.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:46:40.94Never is not true. 00:46:42.06But I want to stress why. 00:46:43.84And I don't receive that many mails. 00:46:46.62So people always ask me all my life, how come you have so much time? 00:46:50.90And I told from the beginning, also when I arrived in Portugal, when I received many mails. 00:46:55.62And I told people, I know you're paid. 00:46:58.50I know you're working. 00:47:00.16And I trust you. 00:47:01.68And I trust that all people do well and try to do the best they can. 00:47:06.24But I don't need to know that. 00:47:07.94You don't need to send me mails to tell me, hey, Stephen, do you know I'm working on this project? 00:47:13.62And then they put you in CC. 00:47:16.02I said, so from the start on, I mentioned to everybody, when I'm in CC, don't send it to me. 00:47:22.24Because it's not for me. 00:47:23.46It's just for me to know that you're working. 00:47:25.34But don't be afraid. 00:47:26.72I know you're working. 00:47:28.34So after a while, all these mails fell away. 00:47:30.98And then I said, everybody can mail me if you need me. 00:47:33.94If you need me, I'm there. 00:47:35.18That's what I'm paid for. 00:47:36.54But not to read. 00:47:38.16So that limits the amount of interesting mails I need to read. 00:47:43.36And everybody's saying, I'm overloaded. 00:47:45.24I have too many mails. 00:47:46.66All my mails, end of the day, always answered. 00:47:50.46Always. 00:47:51.30Never one delay. 00:47:52.42Always answered.
José Maria Pimentel 00:47:53.30So how do you answer emails that you need some time to reflect on? 00:47:58.72So you answer saying, I need time to reflect on this? 00:48:00.66Exactly. 00:48:01.06And that's something what people do not do. 00:48:02.92Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:48:03.60Exactly. 00:48:04.16I try to do it.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:48:05.24Because you don't know, have they read it? 00:48:08.04Uh-huh. 00:48:08.42Are they aware of it? 00:48:09.42No, I will always answer, let me come back to you. 00:48:12.62Or if I don't know immediately answer, I will think about it or something. 00:48:16.44But people will know that I've read it. 00:48:19.56Secondly, I told people, because here I come with a plane, everybody is already on the phone, and then I'm telling people, don't call me for just to call. 00:48:32.36You can all call me if you need me. 00:48:35.18If you need me, you can call me. 00:48:37.38But for the rest, you're accountable. 00:48:39.78You're responsible, not me. 00:48:41.26You're responsible. 00:48:42.24Only if you're in doubt, or if you think, I would love to have Steve's opinion on that, you can call me. 00:48:48.82You cannot imagine how much time that saves you. 00:48:52.04I can imagine, actually. 00:48:54.00I can imagine. 00:48:55.16And that's what allows me, as CEO, probably to be more than 60% busy with people. 00:49:02.40Because it's a people's business.
José Maria Pimentel 00:49:03.68Yeah, that's where it actually can make a difference. 00:49:05.72That's where you make a difference. 00:49:07.36Well, I don't need to persuade you of this, but I was thinking when I was hearing you, the people that email you are probably people with whom you have regular meetings anyway. 00:49:16.64So, I don't know, weekly or bi-weekly. 00:49:19.24So, for them to need to email you before that meeting, it needs to be really something important. 00:49:25.84Yes. 00:49:26.60Like an emergency or something.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:49:28.48That happens. 00:49:29.58Yeah, and that happens, of course. 00:49:30.80But there you go. 00:49:31.64And holidays, weekends, all my mails are answered, always. 00:49:36.42Because I find it, yeah, some people agree with me and some not. 00:49:40.46But I think, as a CEO, you have a responsibility. 00:49:44.46You're also paid for it. 00:49:46.20And it's not because you're on holiday. 00:49:47.80You can't say, ah, but I'm on holiday. 00:49:49.14No, you have a responsibility because your company is more than just you have a responsibility to bring food on the table for more than 1,000 people. 00:49:58.10I mean, that is what it's about. 00:50:00.48I mean, there's people behind. 00:50:02.20And they're working to get food on the table, to get their bills paid at the end of the month. 00:50:07.12Imagine you don't take that seriously. 00:50:09.44Even in the weekends, you're playing with the future of the company and of people's jobs. 00:50:16.44And so this is always the responsibility that you have. 00:50:18.40It's a responsibility towards the people who are earning money and who need that money to send their children to school, to buy shoes, to have bakaliao on the table, to have... 00:50:29.24I mean, that's important.
José Maria Pimentel 00:50:31.56It's almost an ethical thing. 00:50:33.30Like, I don't think we have developed for email specifically, but also for other organizational issues. 00:50:38.88We haven't developed yet those norms society-wide. 00:50:42.26So you do it that way, and I agree it makes sense, but there's not yet a norm. 00:50:46.92Like, for instance, what you just mentioned, the reply to the email thing. 00:50:50.90It's funny because I've tried to implement that myself. 00:50:53.26Whenever I cannot reply, I say, oh, this is a long email, so I might take some time, but I've read it. 00:50:58.32But back, I don't know, even months ago, I didn't do that. 00:51:02.06What I did was I saw it, I would think I need to read it with more time. 00:51:05.52And then sometimes I would take like two months to reply back, which is not, it's not even polite, right?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:51:11.48No, it's out of respect. 00:51:13.70I mean, and also, it's also good for the mental position of the one who sent you the mail. 00:51:18.34He knows you're busy. 00:51:19.34Exactly, yeah. 00:51:19.94And he knows that you will come back when you are ready to come back on it. 00:51:24.26So that's important. 00:51:25.76Exactly. 00:51:26.24It's a sign of respect. 00:51:27.08It's hygiene also. 00:51:28.18It's a hygienic thing for me.
José Maria Pimentel 00:51:30.10And that's a big part of the reason why you have to be well-rested enough to be able to read or to, I don't know, engage in whatever other form of creativity and of curiosity. 00:51:40.70I don't feel this very much myself, I should say, because I'm a really very curious person. 00:51:44.58But many people say, and you probably have heard this, that, oh, I'd love to read more. 00:51:49.76But when I arrive home, I'm so tired. 00:51:52.16My brain is like, it's twisted and it's not even working anymore. 00:51:56.58So all I can do is turn on TV and watch some crap. 00:52:00.46And I can understand why people say that. 00:52:02.20Because if you have a very demanding job and you have to be all day long doing that, then it's tough when you arrive home to have the will, like to have the motivation to read.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:52:13.06I could not sleep without reading. 00:52:14.66That's the difference. 00:52:15.84Ah, so you are the... 00:52:17.70I need to read. 00:52:18.76Bedside table. 00:52:20.12No, no, I only have one. 00:52:21.26I always read one book at a time. 00:52:23.06But I always have like 60 books waiting. 00:52:25.28But on your bedside table? 00:52:26.46No, no, no, no, in the office. 00:52:28.12I mean, I have it in my apartment, a kind of office and they're there. 00:52:32.70So you read before bed, not in bed? 00:52:34.78In bed as well. 00:52:35.76But not that much because that's not that good for health, in bed. 00:52:39.32Probably not. 00:52:39.98In bed reading and in bed looking at screens is quite negative for sleep. 00:52:45.34So normally I read before going to bed.
José Maria Pimentel 00:52:48.78So what's your habit? 00:52:50.72You have dinner and then like half an hour later or something, you take to the couch and you...
Steven Braekeveldt 00:52:57.78Well, I always look at the... 00:52:57.78I always follow news. 00:53:00.46So I need to know what's going on in the world. 00:53:02.56That's for sure. 00:53:04.30And then I will read. 00:53:05.54Ah, interesting. 00:53:06.52I put up some candles and read. 00:53:08.56And you have like a fixed slot of time to read? 00:53:12.48No, because I mean, you know, when I was working, normally every... 00:53:16.24Mostly every evening you have a dinner. 00:53:18.18And so you come home at 10. 00:53:19.72So you read until 11 and then you go to sleep. 00:53:22.86Still, yeah, you have to be organized. 00:53:24.12There's not too much time to do that. 00:53:25.62Yeah, but still, it goes.
José Maria Pimentel 00:53:27.70It goes. 00:53:28.78Well, Stephen, it was a great conversation. 00:53:30.80Before we go to your book, is there anything you wanted to say I didn't ask?
Steven Braekeveldt 00:53:34.12There's so many things. 00:53:35.20Your relationship with nature, your relationship with philosophy, your relationship with... 00:53:38.48I mean, there's so many things you could... 00:53:40.40That you can go into, so...
José Maria Pimentel 00:53:42.12That's interesting. 00:53:42.70I didn't ask that because you started when you were at university. 00:53:45.94I think you worked with the Worldwide Fund, right? 00:53:48.52Yeah, I was a nature guide.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:53:51.04Worldwide, I found... 00:53:52.24I was also looking at the telluric radiations with the radiestasy and everything and how to avoid that little children pee in bed. 00:54:01.08I mean, because it has a lot to do with radiastic, with the telluric. 00:54:04.98All these kind of things I was very active in, yeah.
José Maria Pimentel 00:54:07.30No, no, no, no. 00:54:08.14Now you caught my curiosity. 00:54:09.52The children pee in bed thing.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:54:11.30Well, you know, people are quite far away from earth, from nature. 00:54:16.40And I should go back. 00:54:17.52Why did the Romans send sheep to build their hair ways, right? 00:54:24.26The roads they built. 00:54:25.64So they always sent herds of sheep ahead. 00:54:28.68Why did they do that? 00:54:29.78Because sheep eat a certain kind of plants. 00:54:33.30They prefer certain plants which are growing on rocky underground, where actually the radiation is the furthest away. 00:54:42.54So you know that the earth gives a kind of radiation every two meters, three meters. 00:54:48.82And so these sheep, they walk and then they put this, when two or three kinds of herds come by, and they all go the same way. 00:54:56.18That's where they put the sticks so that they are on a rocky underground. 00:54:59.92When you go to a garden and you see kind of dens at the garden, you will always see that there is one low den and then three or four same. 00:55:10.64A low one, look at it, standing on one of the radiations, okay? 00:55:16.60So there's many things that you can see, which people don't see anymore. 00:55:20.94When in the old days, I don't know if it was the same in Portugal, but in Belgium, when there was a new farmhouse, they let the dog sleep for three days alone in the farmhouse. 00:55:31.28And the dog would normally always going to sleep in the same place. 00:55:36.04That was the bedroom. 00:55:37.42Because the dogs feel automatically where you would sleep best. 00:55:41.66So then that became the bedroom. 00:55:43.62How many parents don't, or saying, or you meet, that they're saying, you know what's strange? 00:55:48.44I put my baby always like this in bed, and in the morning, it's completely reversed, or it is always diagonally in the bed. 00:55:57.72Children, small babies, they feel this. 00:56:00.28They move away from radiations. 00:56:02.58They sleep in, they move away while they sleep to a place where they can release energy instead of getting energy. 00:56:11.20But that's all lost, okay? 00:56:13.36And so, in those days, when we had people who asked me to go, of, for example, babies peeing in bed, it's mostly what you found out. 00:56:22.84It can be sick diseases and sickness, I'm not excluding that. 00:56:25.90But in a lot of cases, it was because the bed was standing, because the bedrooms are made now in apartments, you cannot choose.
José Maria Pimentel 00:56:33.08That's the block. 00:56:33.92There's two apartments, two bedrooms. 00:56:35.60Sure. 00:56:35.94You have no choice. 00:56:36.86A way to test that is if the child didn't pee in bed when he or she was sleeping elsewhere. 00:56:42.52For example.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:56:43.54And so, what you then do is moving the cot in a place where you think it's better to sleep there than in that place. 00:56:51.48Because next to the telluric radiations, you also have the underground rivers, which give a lot of energy. 00:56:58.22Anyway, this is a completely different topic, but there's so many topics. 00:57:01.58You're full of surprises. 00:57:03.64Well, I could continue for hours, I think.
José Maria Pimentel 00:57:09.52No, you caught my curiosity, so I already wrote it down to check it out later. 00:57:13.94Oh, you can check it. 00:57:14.82Especially because I'm just facing that very issue with one of my daughters. 00:57:18.36Oh, yeah? 00:57:18.96Yeah. 00:57:19.46So, I'll check it out. 00:57:20.32Check it out. 00:57:20.92I'll check it out. 00:57:21.78It might have to do with that. 00:57:23.34And speaking of surprises, the book you are going to recommend is also a surprise, at least to me, because you mentioned the author before we began.
Steven Braekeveldt 00:57:30.26Well, it's a book I still recommend. 00:57:32.14I have read it like six or seven times. 00:57:34.30And once in a while, I read it over. 00:57:36.12It's a book which is completely forgotten now. 00:57:38.16It's from Martin Gray. 00:57:39.68Martin Gray. 00:57:41.02Au nom de tous les miens. 00:57:42.16I read it in English, but for those I loved in English. 00:57:46.86And Martin Gray is a little boy who is living in Poland, in Warszawie. 00:57:54.58And then, of course, you have the Second World War. 00:57:56.34He's Jewish and he is caught. 00:57:59.64And so, they have to move into the ghetto. 00:58:01.84And he is full of energy. 00:58:03.72And he puts up whole gangs to smuggle bread into the ghetto and make money, etc. 00:58:10.34I mean, there's all these kind of things. 00:58:13.04Yeah, he loses, of course, all his family is killed. 00:58:15.74And then, he escapes from the ghetto. 00:58:18.28And he becomes part of the Russian, the Partizanen, who are going against the Germans. 00:58:23.22Then he, for two years after the Second World War. 00:58:26.08But you should read that part, it's quite impacting as well. 00:58:29.32His times at the ghetto. 00:58:31.00And then, he's moved to the concentration camp. 00:58:33.00He escapes concentration camp. 00:58:35.10And then, he's with the Partizanen to chase the Nazis or to discover them. 00:58:41.64And then, he moves to New York, where a great aunt is living. 00:58:44.68And he works like hell. 00:58:45.84I mean, he feels like, I lost all that time. 00:58:48.80And he works, works, works. 00:58:50.36Work is the only thing to not remember all the atrocities. 00:58:54.98He works like hell. 00:58:56.44To forget that he lost his brothers, sisters, parents, uncles. 00:59:00.68He works. 00:59:01.64He becomes rich. 00:59:02.76And then, he finds his spouse. 00:59:06.88They have three or four children. 00:59:08.54That I don't know anymore. 00:59:11.04But, at a certain moment, he stops working, buys a big house in France, the south of France. 00:59:16.82And then, while he's traveling, there's a house with his wife and four children are dead. 00:59:23.18And, his first reaction is, I have to have children. 00:59:30.50Because, it's important to live on. 00:59:33.46that they know about it, that they know about it, that they, what I want to say is, this is a guy, you read that book, the guy went through so much. 00:59:40.24And his end, even when he's older, his first thing, this lust of life. 00:59:46.38I have to live, I have to live, I have to continue to live through my children, they have to know what my parents were like, because, otherwise, I have nobody to tell. 00:59:57.16And still today, I give this book from time to time to people who are, have a burnout, who are in depression. 01:00:03.56And I'm telling them, if they can read it, because, in a lot of cases, they cannot concentrate that much, but if they can read it, I give that, because it puts the kind of problems they have, versus the problems in perspective, it puts these problems in perspective. 01:00:20.92And it shows that hunger for life, that animal that is so eager to live, to discover, to experience, to do different things, incredible. 01:00:32.56But the book is forgotten, it's already a long time out of any list, but it's a book I read very early on, it had impact in my life. 01:00:42.02But from a literary point of view, it's rubbish, yeah? 01:00:45.48This will never win, the Nobel Prize, this will never win. 01:00:48.40Well, probably not rubbish, but... 01:00:49.62No, but from a literary point of view, that's not... 01:00:52.22I understand, yeah.
José Maria Pimentel 01:00:52.64But it's the content which is so important in that book. 01:00:55.64It kind of connects beautifully to what we were talking about in the very beginning of our conversation, the issue about sustainability, and you being able to, not only think of the present, but also your grandchildren, which was, as you described a bit, also in his mind. 01:01:08.78So that whole willingness to fulfill life, to take advantage of life, also has to do with those that came after you. 01:01:15.58Yeah. 01:01:16.02Right? 01:01:16.22Even those that are not born yet. 01:01:17.58Yeah. 01:01:17.98But that will be your family, yeah. 01:01:20.48Great, Stephen. 01:01:21.92This was a great conversation. 01:01:23.22And I feel privileged that we've recorded this a few days before you leave us, I don't know.
Steven Braekeveldt 01:01:28.92Well, yeah, man, it was a good coincidence, and I'm very happy to be here. 01:01:32.38Yeah. 01:01:32.74It was a good discussion. 01:01:34.06Thank you.
José Maria Pimentel 01:01:34.60You'll be coming back to Portugal, I guess, from time to time.
Steven Braekeveldt 01:01:36.92Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:01:37.70I mean, there are some organizations who have asked me to eventually do something, so I will see what... 01:01:42.66Yeah. 01:01:43.02I'm not looking proactively, I'm looking what comes on my path.
José Maria Pimentel 01:01:46.18People who have listened to this conversation and want to follow you, where can they follow you? 01:01:46.18LinkedIn? 01:01:50.30LinkedIn. 01:01:50.92Okay. 01:01:51.40I'm not sure I can pronounce your surname correctly. 01:01:54.42Brakevelt? 01:01:55.16Brakevelt. 01:01:55.78Ah, that was good. 01:01:56.54Okay. 01:01:56.74Yeah, that was very good. 01:01:57.68Because I need it for the introduction. 01:01:58.96No, it's very good. 01:02:01.10Okay, thank you, Stephen. 01:02:02.18Thank you very much. 01:02:03.72Este episódio foi editado por Hugo Oliveira. 01:02:06.80Contribua para a continuidade e crescimento deste projeto no site 45 grauspodcast.com. 01:02:12.16Selecione a opção Apoiar para ver como contribuir, diretamente ou através do Patreon, bem como os benefícios associados a cada modalidade.