Debora Revoltella: A Europa cria empresas. Porque não as faz crescer?

Data: Wed, 22 Apr 2026 16:30:00 +0000  ·  Duração: 00:36:53

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Debora Revoltella 00:00:00.0062% dos empresas europeus nos dizem que quando eles exportam para outro país europeu, eles enfrentam frixões. 00:00:09.14E então, em alguma forma, se você puder eliminar essa barreira e essa frixão, investimento aumentaria por 10%, que é o começo. 00:00:20.8065% das pessoas na Europa vivendo em cidades dizem que a casa é o problema mais importante. 00:00:28.54A maneira que nós pensamos é que há muito a fazer em termos de permissão de terras, etc. 00:00:36.72Isso é para certeza, mas também há algo a fazer em termos de capacidade de inovação e eficiência do setor de construção.
José Maria Pimentel 00:00:46.08Olá, neste episódio a convidada é Débora Revoltella, economista-chefe do Banco Europeu de Investimentos. 00:00:52.80A Débora dirige a equipa que é responsável pelo relatório de investimentos do BEI, onde, todos os anos, a instituição analisa a evolução do investimento na União Europeia. 00:01:02.60Já agora uma nota, estavam lá membros também da equipa dela que falaram, e por isso não estranhem ouvirem umas vozes diferentes em alguns momentos da conversa. 00:01:10.16Para quem gosta destes temas, esta foi uma conversa muito interessante e complementar ao primeiro episódio com a Presidente do BEI, porque podemos ir mais a fundo e ter uma discussão mais técnica sobre alguns temas. 00:01:21.36O grande problema barra desafio na Europa é, segundo a Débora, a falta de investimento privado, que é bastante mais baixo do que acontece nos Estados Unidos. 00:01:28.94E para ela, a explicação tem duas frentes, digamos assim. 00:01:32.16Uma do lado da procura e outra do lado da oferta. 00:01:34.76Do lado da procura, segundo ela, isto tem sobretudo a ver com problemas na criação do mercado único, que não é ainda suficientemente desenvolvido, suficientemente unificado na União Europeia, o que implica que haja falta de oportunidades de negócio para aplicar o investimento. 00:01:50.16Mas também há problemas do lado da oferta de fundos, porque, segundo ela, continua a haver dificuldades em canalizar as poupanças dos europeus para investimento produtivo de longo prazo, sobretudo na fase de crescimento das empresas mais inovadoras. 00:02:03.64É aqui que entra, em grande medida, o BEI, mas também são necessárias outras medidas que permitam desbloquear o investimento privado. 00:02:10.64Falámos por isso mais em detalhe de várias medidas que já tinha falado na conversa com a Presidente, Nadia Calvinho, e falámos sobre, talvez, um dos principais desafios políticos atuais da União Europeia. 00:02:20.62É que a União Europeia está ainda um pouco na dúvida em relação ao melhor caminho a seguir, entre, por um lado, maior abertura comercial, tem assinado vários acordos comerciais, por exemplo, com a Índia, com o Mercosul, e, por outro lado, tomar medidas de proteccionismo, algumas delas poderíamos chamar-lhes de política industrial, que visam proteger a economia europeia. 00:02:39.58Por exemplo, ainda há poucas semanas, a Comissão Europeia lançou uma proposta para tornar obrigatório que determinadas indústrias comprassem produtos feitos na União Europeia. 00:02:48.84Uma medida não muito diferente de algumas medidas tomadas por Donald Trump nos Estados Unidos. 00:02:53.60Falámos também das medidas do BEI em relação a Portugal, que têm sido várias e, por exemplo, nos últimos tempos, relacionadas com o problema da habitação. 00:03:01.40Talvez não soubessem, vale a pena ouvir. 00:03:03.38Já agora uma nota curiosa, que provavelmente não sabiam, Portugal faz parte do BEI há mais 10 anos do que faz parte da União Europeia. 00:03:10.20Espero que goste do episódio. 00:03:11.38Voltamos daqui a 15 dias com um grande convidado. 00:03:14.38Até lá! 00:03:29.60Este episódio tem o apoio da Nespresso Profissional. 00:03:32.92Há pausas que fazem a diferença. 00:03:34.80Não só pelo café, mas pelo momento que queriam. 00:03:37.66A Nespresso Profissional garante isso. 00:03:39.58Café de qualidade em cada chávena, máquinas intuitivas e assistência técnica em 24 horas. 00:03:45.60Para hotéis, restaurantes e escritórios que não abdicam do detalhe. 00:03:49.20Saiba mais em nespresso.com.br.pt. 00:03:54.44Bem, Débora, bem-vindo ao Corita Singarás, primeiro. 00:03:57.18Muito obrigado. 00:03:58.14Diz-me sobre o reporte de investimento, para as pessoas que não sabem o que é.
Debora Revoltella 00:04:02.00O reporte de investimento é a forma que, na qual a Banca Europeia de Investimentos Bancos, nós levamos o impulso de investimento na Europa. 00:04:08.92É o nosso reporte de flagship, nós fazemos isso uma vez por ano. 00:04:12.60E nós realmente olhamos o investimento, o que é um investimento constraindo, o que a Europa deveria fazer. 00:04:18.58E este ano, nós temos um mensagem, que tentamos para apoiar o positivo, mas temos áreas de graça a olhar para olhar para olhar para olhar para olhar para olhar para o que é. 00:04:30.28Então, nós começamos a olhar para o que aconteceu com o investimento na últimas décadas. 00:04:36.00Na última década, nós vimos muitos casos, uma série de conflitos, uma série de conflitos, e, apesar disso, o investimento tem sido relativamente resiliente overall na Europa. 00:04:48.42A resílência é muito dependente de muito forte de apoio de politica. 00:04:53.16Na verdade, o investimento de governo tem sido muito forte. 00:04:56.40Eu acho que todos os países sabem sobre o Programa de Recovimento e Resilienção Facilitação Programa, que tem realmente empolgado investimento, principalmente no green e digital. 00:05:07.06Então, você realmente vê o governo de empreendedor overall mudando por causa da política de prioridade.
José Maria Pimentel 00:05:13.54O que era para recuperar da pandemia, mas então era um pouco.
Debora Revoltella 00:05:16.62Mas é tudo bem. 00:05:18.26Era uma forma de recuperar da pandemia. 00:05:21.90Mas então, era muito importante que o dinheiro tinha que ser gastado em digital e green e outras prioridades. 00:05:29.80Então, era uma forma de recuperar, mas mudando a publicidade de empreendedor. 00:05:35.38E o dinheiro que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante. 00:05:41.02que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante. 00:05:47.56Então, a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante. 00:05:55.16E também era muito forte. 00:05:57.10Mas a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante. 00:06:02.10E a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante. 00:06:17.74E também era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante para a gente que era muito importante. 00:06:21.38Mas isso acontece em um momento em que o investimento é falado, apesar da falta de apoio que ainda está chegando. 00:06:30.36Então, o ponto é, o que você pode fazer para realmente apoiar mais privados investimentos e conviver os firmes para investir? 00:06:38.36O que nós temos que, em fato, os firmes investem quando há um bom business case e um bom business opportunity. 00:06:47.00Então, o primeiro ponto de prioridade deve ser que há bons bons oportunidades. 00:06:54.30E aí vem a discussão sobre a integração do single market, a simplificação, melhor business environment. 00:07:05.88Se você fornecer isso, a oportunidade vai surgir. 00:07:10.94E aí, no relatório, nós observamos o impacto do mercado europeu em investimento ao longo do tempo. 00:07:18.54Então, o processo de integração europeu foi levado, que não explica 25% do investimento adicional que temos visto desde os anos 80. 00:07:31.24Então, o primeiro ponto de investimento de crescimento é explicado por integração. 00:07:36.48Mas integração é falso. 00:07:38.34Europeu empresas estão dizendo que 62% do europeu empresas estão dizendo que quando eles exportam para outro país europeu, eles faceam frixões. 00:07:49.12E aí, em alguma forma, se você puder eliminar essa barreira e essa frixão, o investimento de crescimento de crescimento, que é um start. 00:08:01.02E aí, eu acho que é muito importante.
José Maria Pimentel 00:08:03.08There's that famous IMF study, where they try to proxy the equivalent of tariffs on the barriers to the internal market.
Debora Revoltella 00:08:12.12We work very much with the team, and actually we change a lot of notes, and we are really convinced, convinced of the effect of these barriers on investment. 00:08:22.98What a lot of people don't realize is that there was a very nice article on the FT, actually, looking at one example, it was a small doll from IKEA, I think, that had five labels along half a meter. 00:08:42.62I'm exaggerating. 00:08:43.76One for each country. 00:08:44.70But basically, the label was going from, in France, when you stop playing with this toy, you have to recycle, putting it in the bin of color, yellow, blue, whatever, etc. 00:08:57.18In Sweden, to use these toys, you cannot give it to a kid below age. 00:09:04.12So, this is the kind of friction that IKEA can manage it. 00:09:09.98It's big. 00:09:11.12They have all the lawyers of the world, etc. 00:09:13.76If you go to a small country, it's a bit discouraging to serve the oil market, etc. 00:09:19.68And that's the kind of friction that are a trivial thing. 00:09:23.48But, in the end, Europe really has to crack down this level of fragmentation. 00:09:30.34In the discussions, everybody's talking about the gold plating regulations. 00:09:35.52So, there is something coming from the European side. 00:09:38.84And then, it goes to the national level, you give a gold plating, you make it slightly, slightly different. 00:09:47.46But, that means that you fragment the market. 00:09:50.40Yeah. 00:09:50.86So, that's where we think that a lot of effort still has to come from European level. 00:09:58.28But, it's at the member states level that this friction comes out. 00:10:03.44So, member states have to do also their own work. 00:10:06.78But, the effect is more business opportunity and then more investment. 00:10:12.78And, that's the good part of the study. 00:10:14.72The other part that we think is quite important is this trade agreement that we have seen in the last months. 00:10:22.50A strong acceleration of trade agreements. 00:10:26.04We think they have a potential, particularly some of them have a very strong potential. 00:10:32.66You mean the Mercosur and the one with India? 00:10:34.24The India one, actually. 00:10:36.04It's quite important. 00:10:37.16We think they have the potential of increasing 20% of the bilateral export with the region involved. 00:10:44.84And, overall, roughly 3% of European export. 00:10:49.02That's meaningful. 00:10:50.20And, it's actually creating, again, a business opportunity. 00:10:54.02That is what we need. 00:10:55.66So, on private investment, we see focus on business opportunity, create an environment for business opportunity. 00:11:03.06On the public sector side, we have a lot of needs at the European level. 00:11:09.44The size of the EU budget is what it is. 00:11:13.46It's defined. 00:11:14.66There is not much likelihood that it will become much bigger. 00:11:19.38The recovery resilient facility is finishing. 00:11:22.70The EAB is doing its part. 00:11:24.40We are lending a lot. 00:11:25.92We actually increased our lending capacity strongly. 00:11:29.62But, at the end, the amount of European public money going for European public goods, if you want, activities, are constrained.
José Maria Pimentel 00:11:40.56So, how do we compare with the U.S.? 00:11:42.32I mean, I've seen the figures, but I'm not completely sure.
Debora Revoltella 00:11:44.20The European budget is 1.3% of GDP, the European budget. 00:11:49.44Then, at the national level, European member states, they go from 30% to 50%, something like that. 00:11:59.32And then, in the U.S., it's some 35% of GDP that is at the U.S. level. 00:12:07.42So, actually, you compare 1 to 35% in the U.S. 00:12:12.04We are talking about public expenditure.
José Maria Pimentel 00:12:15.64My question was actually more about the investment programs from the state. 00:12:19.64So, here we have the IB, of course. 00:12:21.30We have the commission. 00:12:22.68We have the... 00:12:23.54I'm talking about programs at the U.S. level. 00:12:25.26Yeah. 00:12:25.56But, we don't have anything like DARPA, ARPA, like they have in the U.S., which many people call the hidden developmental state. 00:12:32.96So, it's a funny concept. 00:12:34.42Like, in theory, the U.S. is very market-oriented. 00:12:38.16We don't want to intervene or anything. 00:12:39.86But then, they have these massive programs. 00:12:41.82Many of them are spread out to agencies. 00:12:43.62Some of them are implemented on a federal level. 00:12:45.88And, if you look at the amount of funding they have, it's actually much more than we have here.
Debora Revoltella 00:12:49.58Yeah, I think it all comes on how much money the U.S. government for a U.S. wide program says, even if implementation is done at the national level, and how much money the U.S. has for a European program. 00:13:05.24And, that's what we were saying, that at the U.S. level, you have 1.3% of GDP. 00:13:10.42It's not much. 00:13:11.10It's much more, yeah. 00:13:11.80So, particularly on the innovation side, actually, I think that's one area that is quite interesting and quite close to what I think we are proud of at the EIB, that we are playing a very important role in these areas. 00:13:28.40We are, as an institution, playing a major role in venture capital and in venture debt. 00:13:36.76Actually, we are quite a strong supporter in the market. 00:13:40.38And, by having developed since the beginning these markets, actually, we are very close in understanding what are the gaps and where the market should evolve. 00:13:52.40We realize that one area where companies start having problems is when they start becoming, we call them in the scale-up phase. 00:14:03.00So, they're big enough, if you want, that it's become a problem for the kind of venture capital funds that we have in Europe. 00:14:11.30They are not, the venture capital funds are not big enough to invest in these companies. 00:14:16.34If they buy one, they finish the money, they have no diversification, etc.
José Maria Pimentel 00:14:21.38Sorry, that's an important point, because since they don't have that much money, they cannot diversify away, which means they are very risk-averse. 00:14:28.40Yeah, yeah.
Debora Revoltella 00:14:28.96So, at the end, the market doesn't work when the firms start to become bigger. 00:14:33.70And that's where a lot of firms, also before, but they go abroad. 00:14:38.06So, what we are doing is we already did it with what we call European Tech Champion Initiative. 00:14:46.58We have started investing in firms that are bigger, so the bigger firms can invest in scale-up funds. 00:14:54.08And now, we are looking at doing even more, actually, at expanding this program, and also finding ways, and that's very important for the Saving and Investment Union, finding ways to attract pension funds and insurance to invest with us, with the EIB group, with the EIF, in these funds or in companies together with us. 00:15:17.36And the reason is simple, because in Europe, we have lots of money that we call like a dormant saving or dormant wealth. 00:15:26.08And we think that this is better for two sides of the picture. 00:15:30.46On the one side, bank deposit don't pay that much. 00:15:34.24So, you have a lot as an individual. 00:15:36.24You have a lot of money in the bank deposit. 00:15:38.76It doesn't pay much. 00:15:39.96Maybe it covers inflation. 00:15:41.50Maybe no. 00:15:42.52But, actually, people will have issues at a certain point with their saving of their life for the pension. 00:15:50.00So, you want it for individual people to have enough savings in the future, and you also want it because the pension and insurance funds are actually passing to long-term investors, and they could easily invest in private equity, venture capital, innovation, if you find the schemes that suit them. 00:16:14.38So, schemes that are control of quality, that are stable enough, et cetera. 00:16:22.10And that's what we are trying to do. 00:16:24.06And also, another thing that the EIF, our daughter institution, is doing, we have started publishing all our track record of performance of our investment in venture capital. 00:16:36.70And this is extremely important because you have some pension funds, insurance, that are very sophisticated in the Nordic countries. 00:16:47.00So, they know how to invest in venture capital. 00:16:49.96So, they don't need necessary us. 00:16:53.18They may need us to invest out of their comfort zone of the Nordic countries to access other countries. 00:17:01.02They may need us. 00:17:02.78They may be interested in us. 00:17:04.74Maybe they could do it also by themselves, but they are interested in our generation and assessment capacity. 00:17:11.76But there are other countries in which pension funds, insurance, but even foundations, they don't have this expertise. 00:17:21.98They understand that they may want to do it. 00:17:24.62They understand it's a good process. 00:17:27.22And then, they start learning, doing it with an institution so that it has a strong track record and also puts a quality stamp on the technology which it's investing.
José Maria Pimentel 00:17:39.96It sort of solves the trust problem.
Debora Revoltella 00:17:42.98The trust problem, yes. 00:17:44.32And then, one shares the up and the down, but it's fine. 00:17:49.18But you know that we have engineers that are very expert on specific technology that look in detail at the company, etc., and decide to invest. 00:18:02.46And so, it's a sort of quality stamp on the institution. 00:18:06.54Maybe if you are interested, we did years ago – no, not so much ago – we did a study looking at – we have a product that is called Venture Debt. 00:18:18.36And Venture Debt is financing companies between the first and the second round of equity financing, so innovative companies. 00:18:28.98And what we see is that the firms that receive our Venture Debt program, they invest more after three years. 00:18:38.26So, it's statistically proven, etc. 00:18:40.50After three years, they grow faster, they invest more. 00:18:44.00But what is most important is that at the next phase of financing, they get a much better financing deal. 00:18:52.34And that's exactly because when they go to the next phase, they are – first of all, by having this Venture Debt, they are less stretched because they have already a debt. 00:19:04.40But most importantly, they have a quality stamp on the technology that then pays off at the moment in which they go on this corral of finance.
José Maria Pimentel 00:19:12.78That can be just correlation, no, I'm being there with that. 00:19:15.12No, no, no. 00:19:15.60There is – But the story makes sense. 00:19:16.88I'm sorry, Yara. 00:19:17.64It makes sense.
Debora Revoltella 00:19:18.56You will see. 00:19:19.34There is a lot of causality control.
José Maria Pimentel 00:19:23.06And I've seen EIB Group is – you're right – 35% of the Venture Debt market. 00:19:29.36Those are huge numbers. 00:19:30.3435% of that and 25% of capital. 00:19:33.34I talked about that with the president yesterday. 00:19:35.42He has a good and a bad side. 00:19:36.68So, on the good side, it shows that the EIB is doing an important job. 00:19:39.40On the bad side, he shouldn't need to be doing such an important job, right?
Debora Revoltella 00:19:42.68It's true. 00:19:43.56And I think this is something – not only on Venture Debt and Venture Capital, I think it's part of a growth of a market. 00:19:51.88But I take the point that you are making. 00:19:54.52I think this is a concern that we have in general at the European level in this moment. 00:20:00.86We come from years in which public support to the private sector was very strong. 00:20:06.62And so, the first point is that something is happening and we need the policy support. 00:20:11.78We need the policy support. 00:20:13.22And that's exactly why we say in the report and we show it. 00:20:17.64Actually, you need a business opportunity first. 00:20:21.24And then, after business opportunity, there are cases in which you need the policy support. 00:20:26.20But the policy support should be very targeted. 00:20:29.06Because otherwise, you distort the market too much and you create dependencies on policy support. 00:20:34.20And how are you targeted? 00:20:35.40I think you have to be very precise on the policy objective that you want to achieve and refine what you do. 00:20:45.02We have a very strong take that everything that is innovation related, etc., it's good. 00:20:51.88Actually, it's quite proved by your economic theory that actually you have market failures that you could solve with the policy support. 00:21:02.66But particularly now, when it's trade disruption, global competition, global competitiveness, industrial policies, etc., it's very important to look at what you do and why you do it. 00:21:21.40So, one way in which we are doing it, and also the Commission, actually, we work very closely with the Commission, is we look at the competitiveness of European industries at a very, very granular level. 00:21:34.96So, we go almost at the product level. 00:21:37.84And we look at areas in which Europe is competitive already, areas in which Europe has all the industrial capabilities, but it's not yet fully competitive. 00:21:48.82But also, we look at, in these segments, do we see a lot of innovation happening or not? 00:21:55.28And the idea is that you want to support industries that have a potential, but then the potential comes from industrial capability, but also from the fact of having innovation coming in. 00:22:08.40And that's where I think we have to define policies in order to support where really we can do something for the future.
José Maria Pimentel 00:22:16.86Would you call what the EIB is doing industrial policy?
Debora Revoltella 00:22:19.80The EIB, oh, that's... 00:22:23.32I think we could be part of... 00:22:27.04It's a provocative question. 00:22:28.14It's a provocative question, but I think it could be part of European... 00:22:33.32It is, right, I think. 00:22:33.76It is. 00:22:34.24It is part of... 00:22:36.16The terminology of industrial policy is very vague. 00:22:39.72Yeah, it's a bit fuzzy. 00:22:40.52But I think Europe is moving toward more industrial policy and the EIB is a part of this.
José Maria Pimentel 00:22:46.46Actually, just yesterday, the commission announced something which is that very much industrial policy and trying to...
Debora Revoltella 00:22:52.84But also today, at the commission level, the proposal announced, it's still negotiated, etc., is part of a very delicate balancing act. 00:23:05.22Yeah. 00:23:05.68And I think we will see this more and more coming up in the sense that it's nice. 00:23:11.30I was just looking at the same moment in which it's speaking about European support, European interest, it's speaking about remaining open to trade, it's speaking everywhere it's written targeted. 00:23:26.46That's exactly what I'm saying. 00:23:28.68So it gives the idea that Europe really wants to continue to remain open, understands that in some areas we need to support industry. 00:23:38.84We have to leverage much more the dimension of the European single market. 00:23:43.58So that's also coming on procurement, etc., to have some power associated to the size of the European market, also in terms of procurement. 00:23:54.84But it's all targeted and keeping the focus on openness of the market. 00:24:04.08And I think that's important because it's an aspect for Europe, also the trade.
José Maria Pimentel 00:24:08.60Yeah, definitely. 00:24:09.84The issue with industrial policy in general is that it means that we'll make choices. 00:24:13.70Yesterday, I did something interesting. 00:24:15.58I looked at your first investment reports. 00:24:20.28And the tone is quite different. 00:24:21.82So back then, in 2016, it was like after the crisis, it was all about bringing investment back in general, regardless of the type of investment. 00:24:30.74Now it's much more specific, right? 00:24:32.94More targeted. 00:24:33.56More targeted, which is a good thing. 00:24:35.08But you might face, I don't know, I imagine.
Debora Revoltella 00:24:37.06But you know, you bring it up. 00:24:40.14When we wrote the first report, I think nobody cared about investment, really. 00:24:48.78So it was at the time, OK, the EIB was coming out with the Juncker plan. 00:24:53.92The EIB and the Commission and the EIB were coming out with the Juncker plan. 00:24:58.56The Juncker plan was based on a working paper that we wrote, actually, on what are the gaps in terms of investment in Europe. 00:25:08.06Everybody was like, no, that's not serious. 00:25:12.16Because we were like doing some quantification coming bottom up, saying, look, in the U.S., they invest X in R&D. 00:25:21.92We invest half. 00:25:23.28So you should.
José Maria Pimentel 00:25:24.42Already back then, you were saying.
Debora Revoltella 00:25:25.92But we were showing where the investment gap were coming. 00:25:30.84And really, it was very difficult to convince people, mostly policymakers, there was an investment issue in Europe. 00:25:39.50And then, now, I think everybody is fully confident. 00:25:43.18It helped. 00:25:44.62Now, it helped. 00:25:45.32Many think it helped that working with Draghi took a lot of our work. 00:25:49.66But it's fun how priorities change.
José Maria Pimentel 00:25:53.58I teach a course on banking regulation. 00:25:55.56I was doing it yesterday, and there's some point we talk about banking union and common deposit insurance scheme. 00:26:02.02And you remember, that was a very hot topic back in the day. 00:26:04.46Nowadays, no one really cares about it. 00:26:08.56No one really talks about it.
Debora Revoltella 00:26:09.60Yeah, but that is, I think everybody cares about it. 00:26:13.32We all know that we are not going anywhere without it. 00:26:17.34The problem is that the politics, it doesn't play.
José Maria Pimentel 00:26:20.60I know, but that could be said about this issue back then, right? 00:26:23.10Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Debora Revoltella 00:26:24.24But on investment, people move. 00:26:26.40What do you mean?
José Maria Pimentel 00:26:27.28It's understood well now. 00:26:28.60Now, now it's understood well.
Debora Revoltella 00:26:30.38It's easier to get a political agreement on a positive thing, like investment, rather than a common, if you want, deposit insurance, it's a common liability. 00:26:44.34That is much more difficult. 00:26:46.30Yeah, and it's something that might happen. 00:26:48.08Investment is much easier to get a policy agreement.
José Maria Pimentel 00:26:51.90And it's, I mean, we have to be frank, this became an issue for geopolitical reasons, basically, right? 00:26:56.00So that was what brought it to the table. 00:26:58.06Okay, Deborah, let me try and summarize what you told me. 00:27:00.90So the way you view this, if I understand correctly, is that this is the problem. 00:27:04.86It has two causes, so the demand side and the supply side, in a sense. 00:27:08.08So on the one hand, investment is low because there are not enough opportunities, and that has to do, especially with the single market. 00:27:13.92So if we have a more perfect single market, there will be more opportunities. 00:27:17.76We need to correct that side. 00:27:18.64On the other side, it has to do with access to funding. 00:27:21.14And so one initiative there is, of course, the Savings and Investment Union, whose purpose is to bring people's savings out of the deposit accounts and whatnot into more long-term innovative investments. 00:27:34.92Yeah. 00:27:35.12And on the other hand, there's public entities like the AIB, right? 00:27:38.68Yes. 00:27:39.10Who are doing your part to try and correct these market failures along the way. 00:27:43.92To finish, explain to me a bit more detail what the AIB does, because you guys do many different things, ranging from loans to capital investments. 00:27:52.06Sometimes you work with banks. 00:27:53.10Other times you work with investment funds. 00:27:54.72How does it work?
Debora Revoltella 00:27:55.26Well, it's interesting what is the AIB, because the AIB is a European institution, number one. 00:28:02.86So our shareholders are the European member states. 00:28:06.10They put, when a country enters the European Union, they put capital in the AIB. 00:28:12.28So the last one was Croatia putting capital on the AIB. 00:28:16.72Then this capital grows over time. 00:28:19.24The institution has also the capacity, based on its capital, to issue bonds and finance through bonds. 00:28:28.00So we are an issuing institution, and we issue something that is a European AIB bonds, guaranteed by our capital, but it's in fact a European investment bank bond, European bond.
José Maria Pimentel 00:28:45.04They are the first European bonds in the center. 00:28:47.36Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Debora Revoltella 00:28:48.06And then we operate, and we operate according to policy goal. 00:28:54.64We have several activities that as an institution we pursue. 00:28:59.66And then we can have different kinds of instruments. 00:29:03.70We can have loans to counterparts. 00:29:07.04And when we lend, we actually, normally, because we are a triple A institution, so we have a lower cost of funding than the counterpart that we lend to. 00:29:17.76And in that case... 00:29:18.12The counterpart would be the bank, would be the bank in this case. 00:29:20.02Oh, it can be a bank, it can be a corporate, it can be a government institution.
José Maria Pimentel 00:29:24.14Either you lend directly to corporates? 00:29:25.68Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:29:26.32Ah, okay.
Debora Revoltella 00:29:26.84And also to government institutions, so to a region, a city of, to the public sector. 00:29:35.46And then we basically pass the financing advantage to the counterpart. 00:29:41.22So they have the advantage that doing a project with us, the funding cost advantage is passed to them. 00:29:48.68And also we pass competences, because, I don't know, we do, we finance, help financing a metro line. 00:29:55.94We have done a metro line all over the world. 00:29:58.28So we can tell, look, this is better, this is not, et cetera. 00:30:02.34That's interesting. 00:30:03.00And we have advisory programs coming in as well. 00:30:06.70So that's on the lending side. 00:30:09.00We also, you mentioned to banks, we lend to banks, asking the banks to build a portfolio of loans to SME. 00:30:18.14Again, the funding advantage is passed to the SME. 00:30:22.74And to the SME, we mostly ask to do projects on energy efficiency, on innovation, et cetera. 00:30:30.80So we ask to do certain things. 00:30:33.10On the energy efficiency side, it's interesting because we have quite a new, actually, but a very nice toolkit that, actually, we now provide to banks, actually, in Europe, but also all over the world. 00:30:45.28It's called the Green Checker. 00:30:46.62So the bank, themselves, can look at the firm and see, at the projects, and see if the project ticks the box of being a green project, sustainable, I don't know. 00:30:59.24Yes. 00:30:59.68So it's very nice because it's useful for the bank because they have a loan with us, they have to report back, et cetera. 00:31:08.36But it's also giving the bank an instrument in which they know if they can call green a certain amount. 00:31:15.20And it's really, it's spreading knowledge around Europe. 00:31:20.20And we get it everywhere. 00:31:21.80Yeah. 00:31:23.32Yeah, it's also adapted for the rest of the world. 00:31:27.80So this is an example. 00:31:29.72So it's also the example of how doing business with the DAB is not only about money, but it's also about knowledge and competences. 00:31:40.88And that's quite interesting.
José Maria Pimentel 00:31:42.44Yeah. 00:31:42.68And you're solving market failures in other ways. 00:31:45.40Yeah.
Debora Revoltella 00:31:45.56But also, we call it the technical assistant or advisory. 00:31:49.04But I think just working with an institution that sees so many projects, it's just when you're talking with our loan officer, our engineers, over a coffee, they tell you, "Ah, yes, I saw a similar thing in another country, it's interesting, et cetera." 00:32:05.30So there is a positive exchange. 00:32:08.46This is one part, but then there is another very famous instrument that we have. 00:32:14.06It's called risk sharing. 00:32:16.18It can go from securitization or from normal lending, et cetera, in which we take a part of the risk out of a project. 00:32:26.46The risking. 00:32:27.22The risking, and that's other way of doing it. 00:32:31.34We are very strong, we were saying, on innovative company, on venture debt, on venture capital. 00:32:37.10On venture capital, we have a model in which we are normally minority shareholders in funds. 00:32:45.34So we try to keep the minority shareholders to have the market developing. 00:32:50.62They keep their incentives as a fund.
José Maria Pimentel 00:32:57.74You don't distort their incentives, but you...
Debora Revoltella 00:32:59.62We don't distort their incentives, but support them.
José Maria Pimentel 00:33:02.50Yeah. 00:33:03.10And so you go through them. 00:33:03.82So you put money in the fund, and then the fund it invests in company. 00:33:07.74That's a guarantee. 00:33:08.74Guarantees. 00:33:09.74Yeah.
Debora Revoltella 00:33:10.74Yeah. 00:33:11.74And the guarantees, yes.
José Maria Pimentel 00:33:12.74How does it work? 00:33:13.50The intermediate means that we are giving the money to the banks and they can reach their smaller clients that otherwise would be too small to be lost. 00:33:20.50Okay. 00:33:21.50Yeah. 00:33:22.50It's a specific target being digital. 00:33:23.50Otherwise they would not... 00:33:24.50Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:33:25.50Yeah. 00:33:26.50Another market failure. 00:33:27.50Yeah. 00:33:28.50No networks. 00:33:29.50No branches. 00:33:30.50Exactly. 00:33:31.50You have to go through the banks. 00:33:32.50Yeah. 00:33:33.50Yeah. 00:33:34.50If you go to the Portuguese website, we have very good examples of what we were talking about. 00:33:40.50project. 00:33:41.50So let's see, for example, we finance Sonite stores, Navigator, because it's a heavy industry. 00:33:49.50We also sent them there. 00:33:50.50We have loans for the agricultural area. 00:33:53.50Yeah. 00:33:54.50So we have plenty of good examples. 00:33:55.50Yeah. 00:33:56.50Interesting.
Debora Revoltella 00:33:57.50With the state, the social housing, we have school reconstructions and rehabilitation. 00:34:04.50So if you go there, and it's unique, it's important. 00:34:07.50Maybe another example of what we do more and more, actually, we are convinced that in the European market there is something missing in terms of affordable housing. 00:34:21.50It's not only the social... 00:34:22.50Where did you get that impression from? 00:34:24.50It's not so trivial, because as an economist, it's very difficult to say we have an issue in real estate. 00:34:33.50So we actually wanted to be really careful. 00:34:36.50Okay, go ahead. 00:34:37.50I'm curious now. 00:34:38.50And what's happening is that it's not only the social housing side, but it's very difficult to have models working in terms of affordable housing in the medium class. 00:34:49.50You know, Portugal is one of the areas with huge issues in this point of view. 00:34:56.50And what we have seen is like one data that we have in the report is that 65% of the people in Europe living in cities say that housing is their most important problem. 00:35:10.50And actually, the way we think is there is a lot to do also in terms of permitting land, etc. 00:35:19.50This is for sure. 00:35:20.50But there is also something to do in terms of the innovation capacity and efficiency of the construction sector. 00:35:28.50In the last 15 years, the productivity of the construction sector has been declining. 00:35:33.50Yeah. 00:35:34.50Whereas in other sectors... 00:35:35.50Yeah, in other sectors... 00:35:37.50But also what happens is construction is innovated a lot in terms of materials. 00:35:44.50But then when you go to the building sites, there is innovation, but it's not applied at all. 00:35:50.50So, in fact, the thing that we all see, like you renovate an apartment, the plumber comes three weeks after and then delays and this and that, etc. 00:36:01.50So, you have a way for controlling it now in terms of systems, but they are rarely, rarely applied. 00:36:08.50So, there is something on the innovation side and particularly on the construction side that could be implemented that helps reduce the timing of delivery of housing. 00:36:21.50And that's important in terms of affordable housing.
José Maria Pimentel 00:36:24.50Yeah, yeah. 00:36:25.50Okay, cool. 00:36:25.50Deborah, thanks. 00:36:26.50Thank you. 00:36:27.50Was there anything I forgot to ask you that you wanted to say? 00:36:30.50It's okay. 00:36:31.50And I think we run to Ukraine. 00:36:32.50Okay, cool. 00:36:33.50Thank you. 00:36:34.50Thank you very much. 00:36:35.50It was good. 00:36:36.50Now I have to run.
Debora Revoltella 00:36:37.50Yes, you run. 00:36:38.50Bye.